Cook4Fun (Stranger)
12-22-03 03:07
No 478306
      Aluminum Chloride Test?     

SWIM found what he thinks is some AlCl3 but doesn't know how to test it to see if it is what he thinks it is.  He was wondering if anyone knew a quick little qualitative test for it.  It's lid was left off (he thinks) for quite a while.  So, its far from being anhydrous.  I know the density of the anhydrous form is 2.44 and 2.39 for the hexahydrated form so  finding its density would be pretty good test, but he wants to know for sure before he fucks something up.
 
 
 
 
    sYnThOmAtIc
(Hive Addict)
12-22-03 09:17
No 478358
      I dunno about quick but...     

You can do chloride ion test that is reasonably quick. Ph test of a certain molar solutions, density test if you have wel calibrated equipment. Though I wouldn't reccomend doing a melting point test because as I believe the hydrate form decomposes at 100c making nasty gasses well before it melts and then subsequently sublimes making a mess/hazard if your not prepared or using the proper apparatus.

First off what makes you think it is AlCl3?

Edit:

Acording to this info the easiest method of determining t it is alcl3 is to check the ph of a 5% solution having a ph of 2.3. Also upon heating to 100c like i had said earlier will produce hcl gas and cl gas so be careful. Also when exposed to moisture or small ammounts of water gives off gasses. So if it doesn't semll like powdered hydrochloric acid then try heating s lil bit in a sublimation apparatus properly vented of course and analyze the gas coming off of it. HINT (get some liquid tide) chlorine and strong acids turn the dye red . Chlorine ion testers work pretty much the same and can be found in teh pool chem section of a hardware store. But that s the quickest simplest ways I know of. Be careful if you decide to decompose this stuff with heat don't use anything other than the proper apparatus!! Or if you are brave and don't value your life much you can breathe on a small pile of it and wait a few minutes and see if the smell of hcl is present in the area... I'm not saying stich your face in it and take a deep breath but rather in the general area of the room as the smell spreads quickly like when a bottle of acid is open you will smell it without huffing it got it?

 SECTION 9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES

Molecular Weight: 241.43

Conversion Factor:
    Not applicable

Melting Point: Decomposes at 100 deg C.(27,28) Heating results in the loss of hydrogen chloride.(22)
Boiling Point: Decomposes at 100 deg C.(27,28)
Relative Density (Specific Gravity): 2.4 (water = 1) (25,27,28)
Solubility in Water: Very soluble in cold water (133 g/100 mL at 20 deg C); dissolves exothermically (gives off heat).(23) Very soluble in hot water (produces hydrogen chloride).(27)
Solubility in Other Liquids: Soluble in absolute alcohol (50 g/100mL) and diethyl ether; slightly soluble in hydrochloric acid.(22,27)
Coefficient of Oil/Water Distribution (Partition Coefficient): Not available.
pH Value: Solutions are strongly acidic (23); 2.5-3.5 (5% aqueous solution) (29)
Vapour Density: Not applicable
Vapour Pressure: Extremely low at room temperature; 0.133 kPa (1 mm Hg) at 100 deg C (anhydrous aluminum chloride) (25,27)
Saturation Vapour Concentration: Extremely low at normal temperatures.
Evaporation Rate: Not available. Probably very low at normal temperatures.
Critical Temperature: Not available


SECTION 10. STABILITY AND REACTIVITY

Stability:
    Normally stable to dry air and light; deliquescent; moisture-sensitive; reacts with moisture in air producing hydrogen chloride gas.(22,25)

Hazardous Polymerization:
    Does not occur

Incompatibility - Materials to Avoid:
    WATER - dissolves exothermically (gives off heat). Heating concentrated solutions result in the production of irritating and toxic hydrogen chloride gas and hydrochloric acid.(23)
    STRONG OXIDIZING AGENTS - can react vigorously.
    Anhydrous aluminum chloride can react violently or explosively with many inorganic and organic compounds. For a review of the many substances that react with anhydrous aluminum chloride, consult CHEMINFO record 82 and references 26 and 30.

Hazardous Decomposition Products:
    Hydrogen chloride and hydrochloric acid

Conditions to Avoid:
    Moisture, water

Corrosivity to Metals:
    Dry aluminum chloride is non-corrosive. Corrosive hydrogen chloride or hydrochloric acid will form upon contact with moisture from the air or water Therefore, in the presence of moisture, aluminum chloride is corrosive to steel, stainless steel, cast iron, copper, brass and bronze, aluminum and lead.(31)
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
12-22-03 11:48
No 478399
      If it has been left open then the AlCl3 is...     

If it has been left open then the AlCl3 is toast. You cannot dry it again.
Anhydrous AlCl3 will react rather violently with water.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
http://tinyurl.com/3kdu
 
 
 
 
    sYnThOmAtIc
(Hive Addict)
12-22-03 12:13
No 478405
      Well that answeres my question on sublimation...     

Well that answeres my question on sublimation of the hydrate to obtain the anhydrous form. I figured there would only be a small loss due to some of it decomposing at the 100c...I guess that is why the alc3 prep page is absent of this... Cause it doenst work!
 
 
 
 
    Cook4Fun
(Stranger)
12-23-03 00:38
No 478539
      sYnThOmAtIc: First of all, thanks for the...     

sYnThOmAtIc:
First of all, thanks for the reply.  Secondly, the reason he thinks it is AlCl3 is because that is what it said on the label, but knowing the place it came from that doesn't mean too much.  It's a white crystaline structure that looks all clumped together like someone left the lid off a little too long or it wasn't screwed on correctly.  But who knows it could be anhydrous or just partially hydrated or NaCl for all he knows.  Maybe he'll just try to scrape off the top layer and use the stuff on the bottom.

He thinks he'll try the Cl- test with the help of a TDS (Total dissolved solids) meter and while he's at it the pH meter is right there so he might as well pop that in too.  Do you know if the TDS meter will detect the Al3+ cation?  Sorry, but I have no idea what type of electrode it is off the top of my head.  If everything looks okay with that then he thinks he'll be okay. 

Osmium:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far is it being junk if it is not anhydrous doesn't matter to him seeing how it is going to find its way into a dilute H2SO4 solution.   Plus, if it has RXNed with H20 isn't this the RXN:

AlCl3 + 3H20 <> Al(OH)3 + 3HCl(g)

So, when he checks it with the pH meter he'll just have to hope its acidic.  If it's basic, I think it'll be time to buy some more.  Plus, the Ksp of the Aluminum Hydroxide is extremly low (1.9*10^-34), while that of AlCl3 is pretty high from what sYnThOmAtIc has pointed out.  So, if nothing disolves, he's fucked. 

I know, I know, the shit is cheap, so why not just go out and buy some more?  He's cheap and thats no fun.

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woochuck was on crack?
 
 
 
 
    Osmium
(Stoni's sexual toy)
12-23-03 12:25
No 478648
      Anhydrous AlCl3 is a grey powder.     

Anhydrous AlCl3 is a grey powder.

> when he checks it with the pH meter he'll just have to hope its
> acidic.  If it's basic, I think it'll be time to buy some more.

Solutions of Al salts are always acidic.

> AlCl3 + 3H20 <> Al(OH)3 + 3HCl(g)

No, it's not such a quantitative reaction, you get a mixture of hydrated AlCl3, some hydroxide and some HCl.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
http://tinyurl.com/3kdu
 
 
 
 
    Xicori
(Hive Bee)
12-23-03 16:34
No 478672
      > Anhydrous AlCl3 is a grey powder Swim had     

> Anhydrous AlCl3 is a grey powder

Swim had a lot to do with anhydrous AlCl3, but it was never grey.. it comes as yellow powder or in yellow chunks.

best wishes,
xicori
 
 
 
 
    roger2003
(Hive Bee)
12-23-03 18:37
No 478687
      AlCl3     

Title:  Aluminum Chloride
CAS Registry Number:  7446-70-0
Molecular Formula:  AlCl3
Molecular Weight:  133.34. 
Percent Composition:  Al 20.24%, Cl 79.77%
Literature References:  Prepd from aluminum metal in a heated stream of HCl gas:  Gattermann-Wieland, Praxis des Organischen Chemikers (de Gruyter, Berlin, 40th ed., 1961) p 295; H. J. Becher in Handbook of Preparative Inorganic Chemistry, vol. 1, G. Brauer, Ed. (Academic Press, New York, 2nd ed., 1963) p 812.  Manufacture:  Faith, Keyes & Clark's Industrial Chemicals, F. A. Lowenheim, M. K. Moran, Eds. (Wiley-Interscience, New York, 4th ed., 1975) pp 72-75.  Monograph:  C. A. Thomas, Anhydrous Aluminum Chloride in Organic Chemistry, A.C.S. Monograph Series no. 87 (Reinhold, New York, 1941).
Properties:  White when pure; ordinarily gray or yellow to greenish.  Fumes in air; strong odor of HCl; when heated in small quantities volatilizes without melting.  Combines with water with explosive violence and liberation of much heat.  Freely sol in many organic solvents, such as benzophenone, benzene nitrobenzene, carbon tetrachloride, chloroform.  Keep tightly closed and protected from moisture.  For physical properties see C. A. Thomas, loc. cit.

Derivative Type:  Hexahydrate
CAS Registry Number:  7784-13-6
Trademarks:  Anhydrol (Dermal);  Driclor (Stiefel);  Drysol (Person & Covey);  Xerac (Person & Covey)
Properties:  Colorless crystals, or white or slightly yellow deliquesc, cryst powder; odorless or slight HCl odor.  One gram dissolves in 0.9 ml water, 4 ml alc; sol in ether, glycerol, propylene glycol.  Keep well closed.

Analysis .  Basic aluminum chlorides are so stable that the aluminum content can be determined only after decomposition of the complex ion [75],  The usual procedure is to mix the solution containing aluminum with 60 % sulfuric acid and 0.1 M disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetate, followed by ca. 20 % sodium hydroxide. The pH is adjusted to 4.7 – 4.9 at 60 – 70 °C. After the solution is cooled to about 25 °C and buffer solution (acetic acid, ammonium acetate), acetone, and indicator (dithizone in ethanol) are added, the solution is back-titrated with 0.1 M zinc sulfate. One milliliter of 0.1 M disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetate is equivalent to 2.698 mg of aluminum.

[75]  E. Wänninen, A. Ringbom, Anal. Chim. Acta 12 (1955) 308.

roger2003