hellman
(Soothsayer) 09-07-02 04:38 No 353665 |
OTC Formic Acid Synth | Bookmark | ||||||
Hello, and welcome, Finally,(bet you thought that this little sucker would never materilize) after all this fucking around, on a site that fucks around so much with OTC material, sweet methods, OTC spectactulars and copious amounts of Mdp2p production, you would kind of freaking think BY NOW, that someone would post important stuff like this,. But no-one, What in the fuck is going on with you people? -smile Firstly, there are obviuosly lots of bees who have done this, but for some insane reason, it just hasn't appeared in any legible, followable format,. The only formic acid synth we have, is the one on rhodiums site(god bless) which is a little fucking scarce on the detail, - no offence intended Rhodium, -I mean the way I see it is that, one more chemical you have to extract from them, is just one more way to spend 5 years, right?,-right! HOW IN THE FUCK ARE YOU GUYS MAKING YOUR MDP2P' One of two freaking ways Wacker or the formic!!!!!! Can seem a little obvious but I think - for what ever reasons - that it is time to end this NOW*,. Welcome everybody, to the uncovering of the Formic Acid Synth, you all use it - But until now you have been purchasing it with a level of paranoia,. I welcome you all to the complete undoing of the manufacture of this molecule. By the end of this proceedure we will have formic, Not just me, or you, but as a community, God damn it, let's continue with the chemisty,. Please Enjoy. Oxalic Acid/ Glycerol synth-*To be continued I have to go away now for a few days, but i will return,. With the complete proceedure for you cretons,. If you think you have a working synth, or valuble experienced insight on the Oxalic Acid/ Glycerol put it down in this thread, cause that's what's on the menu,. I leave this synth open ended for you all for two reasons. One is so you can stop and think just a bit how important this is and what can be achieved if we work together, and two because .. Well that's none of your buisiness,,,, IQ is the rate of logic, as Wisdom increases logic, fear & compromise decrease to reveal objectivity |
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Chromic (Synaptic Self-Mutilator) 09-07-02 05:07 No 353675 |
Other peracids | Bookmark | ||||||
The peracetic works great on large scale? The oxone method works great on a small scale. I think formic acid is great if you can get it, but why waste time and effort synthing this chemical? Plus it's much nastier to handle than persulfate or acetic acid... Sure, a good synthesis would be nice, but... not really needed. If you have access to oxalic acid, why not dream up a peroxalic acid synth? But perhaps it would be too unstable... Btw, even making acetic acid is easier than making formic acid. Baking soda + vinegar, boil down, sulfuric acid, distill. |
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Flip (Hive Bee) 09-07-02 06:01 No 353683 |
Re: Other peracids | Bookmark | ||||||
>why waste time and effort synthing this chemical? Well just fer starters you could use zinc/formic acid as a substitute for zinc/ammonium formate in Post 351892 (foxy2: "Reduction of nitro groups w. Zinc/Ammonium formate", Chemistry Discourse). I think that this information should be posted somewhere on the Hive for up and coming bees in addition to the one on Rhodium's site as this chemical does indeed have many useful applications. Flip Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking. |
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Vibrating_Lights (Hive Addict) 09-07-02 11:23 No 353748 |
Mee too | Bookmark | ||||||
Swim would like a otc detailed descriptioon of htis synth. So much game I could sell a hooker some pussy Vl_ |
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raffike (Hive Addict) 09-07-02 14:59 No 353800 |
Is the formic acid the acid that ants contain? | Bookmark | ||||||
Is the formic acid the acid that ants contain?My friend whose father,who was beekeeper,had few gallons of that.I don't know for what. A friend with speed is a friend indeed |
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Rhodium (Chief Bee) 09-07-02 15:24 No 353811 |
Yes, formic is the ant-acid ;-) | Bookmark | ||||||
Yes, formic is the ant-acid |
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raffike (Hive Addict) 09-07-02 19:58 No 353876 |
That's lil off-topic but for what they use it ... | Bookmark | ||||||
That's lil off-topic but for what they use it for?That man is has been dead for over 15 years so i can't really ask him about it but i was told that this man keeped bees to get formic acid not honey.Bees give formic acid too?Obviously,yes.Formic acid was valuable then(and is now too,i guess). A friend with speed is a friend indeed |
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Rhodium (Chief Bee) 09-07-02 20:17 No 353883 |
http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/Formic/Default. | Bookmark | ||||||
http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/Formic |
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hypo (Official Hive Approximator) 09-07-02 20:18 No 353884 |
sugar + formic --> honey | Bookmark | ||||||
afaik there is an experiment they show in highshools in my part of the world: sugar and (a little) formic acid gives honey. couch terrorist |
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lugh (Moderator) 09-08-02 02:11 No 354014 |
Rhodium's Page (Rated as: excellent) |
Bookmark | ||||||
The Real Sooth, and nothing but the Sooth |
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goiterjoe (Title on BackOrder) 09-08-02 02:54 No 354028 |
easier synths | Bookmark | ||||||
oxalic acid isn't always in a very clean form for using to synthesis formic acid. Methanol and Formaldehyde are, and should be somewhat easy to start from. Methanol can be oxidized to formaldehyde by potassium dichromate or acidified potassium permanganate. If an excess of oxidizing agent is used, then the formaldahyde is further reduced to formic acid. I once experimented around with using hydrogen peroxide for this, and didn't get very good yeilds. I wonder if oxone would be strong enough to oxidize methanol all the way to formic acid. I've often thought that this might be the side reaction going on in an oxone reaction which causes the methanol to heat up. All paths are the same: they lead nowhere |
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hellman (Soothsayer) 09-08-02 06:41 No 354110 |
Excellent post you evil mother fuckin bastard! | Bookmark | ||||||
Excellent post you evil mother fuckin bastard!-smile Excellent! oncore!!! I don't want to haggle about details, but I will say it again, But the post's on Rhodiums site ar a little scarce, Be it subjective, and most probably objectivly, FUCK! - always wise guys out there, but you loyalty is admirable,. From the perpective of someone who is actually doing the reaction to someone that just reads it, there is information that could of been there, as you have just shown in your post, that i like!, Much more informay-she-on I found for example the following had no mention of the purity of the formic that was distilled, no reaction formula to asses what byproducts, I would of also like to see some azetrope data, with the water coming over,.Although i assume that there is a neglible amount, and the aqueous formic acid begins slowly to distill over. When the effervescence tends to subside, remove the Bunsen flame and allow the temperature to fall to 70-80°C: then add a further 40g. of powdered oxalic acid, and continue the heating as before. Ultimately 25-30ml of distillate is obtained, the total period of heating being about 1 hour. Btw -Obviouslly Rhodium's page wasn't thoroughly read before this thread was posted, his page has a very clear synthesis of formic acid from oxalic acid and glycerol on his page, see - I think Obviously only has one L-smile -gotta go - but i think kids needed to know here is that holding the glycerol/oxalic any higer than 110, will produce the formate, the ally, and the alcohols,.-onwards IQ is the rate of logic, as Wisdom increases logic, fear & compromise decrease to reveal objectivity |
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terbium (Old P2P Cook) 09-08-02 07:22 No 354126 |
Creton? | Bookmark | ||||||
I have to go away now for a few days, but i will return,. With the complete proceedure for you cretons,. What is a creton? Certainly you can't mean cretin since someone who is calling someone else a cretin would at least check that his spelling is correct. |
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SPISSHAK (Hive Bee) 09-08-02 08:36 No 354163 |
Still confused | Bookmark | ||||||
after reading what lugh posted, still can't get a clear understanding of the mechnism of formic acid from oxalic acid and glycerol. Does it form ester in first stage. Or does the glycerol reduce the oxalic acid? Don't know. |
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Antoncho (Official Hive Translator) 09-08-02 08:41 No 354167 |
Lugh ROCKs! | Bookmark | ||||||
An amazing post, Lugh - i remember a time when i did a very thorough search on allyl chloride and was forced to conclude that there simply was no practical way to make it at home. But - lo and beehold! Thanx a lot, Antoncho |
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placebo (irritable and cranky) 09-08-02 22:12 No 354358 |
How safe and scaleable is this if someone wanted ... | Bookmark | ||||||
How safe and scaleable is this if someone wanted say 20L? |
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baalchemist (Chef d'Equippe) 09-08-02 23:08 No 354374 |
Creton? speak for yourself jerkoff. | Bookmark | ||||||
Creton? speak for yourself jerkoff. Would you understand it better if it was written with a jumbo crayon? GODISNOWHERE Shoot Narcs, Not Drugs |
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hellman (Soothsayer) 09-09-02 03:46 No 354457 |
you guys need to lay of the drugs! | Bookmark | ||||||
What in fuck is wrong with you cretons, Obviously your all being a little bit too touchy, Understandable, with what you associate with,. Save all this shit for somewhere else, and someone else, it's not very becoming, makes you look like a bunch of immature wankers,. I don't know enough about all of you, to come to some kind of understanding why you are like this,. But i don't think it's that hard to run up a profile, - you guys really need to loosen up, Typos- who gives a fuck, this is chemistry, not the anal wars-smile I repeat, i do fear your petty grasping at straws, your bizarre primal playfighting, your all great guys, doesn't mean you have to put people down to elevate yourself, Where's your empathy, If see anymore bullshit about [people pulling me on small shitty typos, your gonna get, here me, anmd you too baal, I'll be coming to get ya,. Don't you all get it? Your not being judged anymore, you can do typos, within reason, it doesn't matter, it not a badge, or a worth definer, it doesn't mean your bad at english, and if you were what would that matter,. -I am sure you all don't really care, and your just pulling my chain,. Maybee it all goes down to what are you relying on to get your happiness, try to move on from the trivial, you can break free of all this kids, I can only assunme alot of you that are this anal, are still going through schooling, and bad stuff is rubbing of on you,. -sorry about the ravings, I am sorry to offend anybody, really -I don't think your idiots really at all, you guys are a crack-up, I didn't mean for you to take it literally.-Jesus? - I love you all, specially you Baal, - you guys make me laugh, who old are you all, Baalchemest, I suggest you get some sleep, Terbium- I suggest you stop being so anal -creton /"kretn/ noun 1 person with deformity and mental retardation caused by thyroid deficiency. 2 colloquial stupid person. cretinism noun. cretinous adjective. anal /"en()l/ adjective of the anus. Sorry, i have finsihed the prep and will publish it tomorrow,. sorry everyone, for my harshness, Your realling pissing me off baal, I don't think your an idiot, at all, nomore than me,. just relax everyone,. IQ is the rate of logic, as Wisdom increases logic, fear & compromise decrease to reveal objectivity |
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Rhodium (Chief Bee) 09-09-02 05:39 No 354493 |
Hey! Chill out! | Bookmark | ||||||
Hey! Chill out! |
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goiterjoe (Title on BackOrder) 09-09-02 08:59 No 354540 |
fuck you too mayonaise boy | Bookmark | ||||||
Just cause I'm old and crusty doesn't make me a crouton by any means. If you didn't like my input, then don't ask me for imperical data to follow up with. All paths are the same: they lead nowhere |
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hellman (Soothsayer) 09-10-02 06:45 No 354807 |
sorry, | Bookmark | ||||||
Results are in. Reality can be a bitch sometimes, I had a choice smoke of S.A bud today, so things shouldn;t get so crayyyy-zzeeeeee,. ok, here it is for you boys and girls, Are there really girls here?-imagine that,..... For Placeebo, and the Hive Collective,. Thankyou Lugh for your post, It is a key in the production and suucess of clandestine manufacter of formic acid,. Here is how I First ran the reaction,. 200 grams of Oxalic Acid (hardware store) is funneled into a standard Fruit juice bottle, 3cm diameter neck, volume 1 litre,(preferably clear here please), Then 350ml of unheated glycerol is poured in, A large 5 litre pot was filled with oil, placed on the stove and is slowly heated. The fruit Juice bottle is inserted in the middle of the heating pot of oil, (use a little caution here, the bottle will not explode if heated uniformly and foil is used around the upper top neck area,.)- and the exploding point is usually the lower bottom floor of the bottle. where the chance of thermal expansion is the greatest,. Keep this covered by all means,. A length of 1 metre of borosilicate tubing 1cm diameter, 1.5mm wall thickness,(You could use copper here I think*!) I base this on Cuso4 as a good dehydrater,. I made a bend in it with one of those micro oxy/propane burners that cost about $60.AUS from hardware stores,. they're so cool! The secret to making a good bend is tho stopper one of the ends, and blow and even pressure on the other, as you are making the bend, and you fuck it up or are about to, you can reheat the area , and blow it out,. Use constant rotation, of the tube or the burner, to give uniform heat. Glass can be bought from local suppliers in every state,. About $12.00 for a metre of this stuff, When you get the hang of this, you can make whatever glass you want,- it's a passion all to itself,. All scientific glassblowing in essence is the performing of a few simple techniques, to achieve many different joints, bends and bulbs, I recommed this to anyone, there are some good book, and online sites, the theorty is very simple, and if you aer prepared to make a few mistakes, your laughing,. Ingredients were thouroughly swirled to mix ingredients into a honey like mixture,. Heated bath slowly, until you could see the efferefence begin, around 110-114, like it says,. Cool,- increased the heating to the point where the condesation formed just over the lip of the glass bend of the air condensor and held tempereature there, and carefuilly watch for the end of the efference,.Slowly a putrid smelling clear liquid came over at about one to two drop per second,.(The tube ran down to the floor into an ordinary jar,.) Where ~120ml of apparently formic acid remained in the flarsk(correct spelling) The pot was taken of the heat, the level marked on the fruit bottle with a texture. Another 200 gms oxalic was added to the flask, and the pot brought to temperature again, where effernece again commenced, a further 125ml of returned,. A total of ~245 ml were obtained in less than 3 hours, So to answer your question, why not,. I also did this rection in a petrol can with a copper tube, outside with a mini gas burner,. I contemplated doing this in a plastic thick walled vessel, in a warm water bath, with a household vacuum cleaner,. The vacuum cleaer would have had two inline air filters, one a Sodium Hydroxide bong, the other a water bong. The reation is pretty much tame, but i don't recommend doing like me unless you have to, Have it niocerly set up so you can add more oxalic easily and have it completely seled because the reaction really stinks,. Chromic- peroxlaic, start a new thread for that please, straight away, I hope this is enough for you all Goodluck IQ is the rate of logic, as Wisdom increases logic, fear & compromise decrease to reveal objectivity |
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goiterjoe (Title on BackOrder) 09-10-02 08:02 No 354827 |
oxalic acid | Bookmark | ||||||
did you use the powdered bleach cleaner as a source of oxalic acid or the boat hull cleaner product? All paths are the same: they lead nowhere |
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foxy2 (Distinctive Doe) 09-11-02 02:10 No 355084 |
my local hardware has oxalic acid, says its ... | Bookmark | ||||||
my local hardware has oxalic acid, says its pretty pure, as deck bleach/cleaner. Basically looks like the purity you would expect from hardware acetone ect. Read and Listen!!! http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/index.cfm |
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Captain_Mission (Stranger / Eraser) 09-17-02 00:47 No 357095 |
somewhat off-topic... | Bookmark | ||||||
This is from an old (1800's) chemistry book. This synth looks stupidly low yielding, but provides an alternative to the route mentioned above by lugh,and in just one step, so it might be an option if you just want the allyl halogenide(or, for some reason, can´t get oxalic acid). In a 800ml flask are placed 400g of glycerol, 36g of red phosporus and 12 g of iodine. A donward condenser and an addition funnel are mounted on the flask. The mixture is warmed until fluid and agitated to render it homogenous. It is then heated to boiling. The reaction starts and a small amount of allyl iodide distills over. 88g of iodine are placed in the addition funnel, and the first portions of distilled product are added to help dissolve iodine. This solution in then slowly added to the reaction mixture. From this moment on the reaction becomes faster. In order to dissolve the rest of the iodine to be introduced, one keeps adding the distilled product to the funnel, until all the iodine passes to the flask. The temperature is kept so as to mantain a calm boiling until no more allyl iodide distils over. The product thus obtained is crude allyl iodide,colored red by iodine, wich will have to be purified. It is agitated in a separatory funnel with 6 times it´s volume of water to wich was added a small amount of strong NaOH solution. This decolorizes the liquid and dissolves the small amount of allyl alcohol formed in the reaction. The dense, now colorless liquid is decanted. It consists of allyl iodide, mixed with a small amount of isopropyl iodide. If one wants to separate the isopropyl iodide, the product is then dissolved in alcohol, and this solution strongly agitated with mercury, in a closed flask. The allyl idide gives, with mercury, a colorless, crystaline, compund C3H5HgI, wich is recovered and crystalized from boiling alcohol. This compound is treated, in alcoholic solution, with the calculated amount of iodine, to transform te mercury into HgI2. The allyl iodide is then distilled, washed with water and dried. The 100g of iodine, used as it was said , yield 125g of dry allyl iodide, still mixed with a very small amount of allyl iodide. |
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hellman (Soothsayer) 10-10-02 09:25 No 366773 |
sorry guys, i been busy, | Bookmark | ||||||
If any one wonders why I didn't post the formic synth, it is because, some of you sadden me greatly, and i have been busy, I have written it up in a complete precise followable form, i promise you that if anyone here genuinely gives a shit about this formic synth, then you will be extremely happy, I have rewritten it in itensive detail,. I spent fucking ages on it, but i got disheartened, and sidetracked,. I have the file on my brother fucking computer, 20kms away, You will see it soon,. my apologies again, I have included many many superb things in the final write up, I have passed on glassblowing experience, and everything needed to make the proceedure sa painless as posible,. Even though i realize i am pissing in the wind, as acetic acid has arrived, I still feel that this is important to all of us here, For those who require this info urgently, just pm me,. seeya sweethearts,. Love you rhodium-smlie!!!!! P.s rhod's, i have kept my promise,the rest will also come, thankyou, IQ is the rate of logic, as Wisdom increases logic, fear & compromise decrease to reveal objectivity |
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ballzofsteel (Miss High & Mighty) 12-02-02 14:18 No 385481 |
Goiter | Bookmark | ||||||
I wouldnt know where, But Ive read somewhere recently about the electrochemical oxidation of methanol to formaldehyde(various catalysts/conditions) in an electro-cell and then with the introduction of H202/Fe(III) basic(ph13)conditions the reaction stops at formic acid. Bit more complex than that,but does seem to be clean and relatively otc way of doing it.Just those membranes to worry about. |
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