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methlab
(Hive Bee) 05-26-04 14:17 No 509783 |
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Performic with 15% HCl hydrolysis result | ||||||
Hi guys! Tried the hydrolysis with 15% HCl after buffered performic, worked very good, this is the choice for my future experiments... 1) In a 250ml rbf: 200g Safrole heated with 5g KOH (85%) at 120C to removed water, then continued heating over night (10 PM - 12 AM) without vacuum at 160C-170C. Distilled Isosafrole, weight was 196g. 2) Put in a 2l 3-neck rbf: 196g Isosafrole, 400ml DCM and 120g NaHCO3, prestired for 15 minutes. Started to add performic acid, which was made 1h before with 400ml 30% H2O2 and 620ml 85% formic acid. Added 50cm liebig condenser on top and refluxed for 24h. Yield 284g monoformyl-glycol. 3) In a 2l 3-neck rbf: 284g monoformyl-glycol, 300ml ethanole (96%), 250ml H2O and 250ml HCl (31%) was heated for 2.5 hours with mild reflux, liebig on top. Separated about 180g raw mdp2p. extracted remaining layer with 2x 100ml DCM and combined with raw mdp2p. Stripped off DCM and water, then distilled the rest with water aspirator vacuum. Yield: 164g clean MDP2P. greetings |
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biffman (Newbee) 05-26-04 17:09 No 509813 |
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15% HCL Hydrolysis | ||||||
Nice work methlab. I am assuming that you mean 96% ethanol (not ethanole). Yes? Or am I not up to speed on something here? Have you yet to use the produced ketone in any further reactions? |
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ApprenticeCook (Hive Bee) 05-26-04 18:43 No 509839 |
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great results... thanks methlab. | ||||||
great results... thanks methlab. Its just my opinion, but no-one listens to me anyway, and rightly so... |
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abolt (Hive Addict) 05-28-04 00:04 No 510024 |
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Aminate and report back | ||||||
284g monoformyl-glycol, 300ml ethanole (96%), 250ml H2O and 250ml HCl (31%) was heated for 2.5 hours with mild reflux, liebig on top Your numbers seem to be out. Using Chromics numbers you would require something like 300 mls OH, 500 mls H2O and 500 mls of 31% HCl. Did you do a bisulfate test? What color was the ketone? What temps did it distill at? Aminate and report back. This is a Lighthouse..........your call. |
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icexool (Stranger) 07-22-04 15:24 No 520910 |
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Why did you use ethanol? | ||||||
Why did you use ethanol? Isn't methanol a lot cheaper or just DCM again. Anyway very interesting info and experiment you did there. That is just a very nice complete synthese about safrole --> MDP2P BTW Isn't it easier to drive off the water of your KOH so you get crystals...and use them insted of KOH solution? |
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ApprenticeCook (Hive Bee) 07-22-04 17:30 No 520950 |
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ethanol/methanol very close/same price, very... | ||||||
ethanol/methanol very close/same price, very similar solvent qualities... really doesnt matter in most cases.... Whats at hand when it was done.... Higher boiling point, reduces solvent reflux and possible loss... BTW Isn't it easier to drive off the water of your KOH so you get crystals...and use them insted of KOH solution? There is water in the KOH crystals, even if you use solid KOH, you need to heat them to drive it off. Its just my opinion, but no-one listens to me anyway, and rightly so... |
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endo1 (Hive Bee) 07-22-04 19:09 No 520975 |
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ethanol | ||||||
Is the purpose of the ethanol just to set a lower reflux temp here? |
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abolt (Hive Addict) 07-22-04 21:32 No 521017 |
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Is the purpose of the ethanol just to set a... | ||||||
Is the purpose of the ethanol just to set a lower reflux temp here? No, It would in fact slightly raise the reflux temperature. If ethanol is easier to get then use it. It's only benefit over Methanol is that it is less toxic. Alcohol is used in hydrolysis to make the the glycol and acidic aquoues layers more miscible. It is not absolutely necessary. Of course if you had UTFSE, you would know this already. The abuse of power is a culturally inherited flaw |
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icexool 07-23-04 16:37 |
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I still didn't find a clear answer via the...
(Rated as: UTFSE!) |
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amine (Hive Bee) 07-24-04 02:46 No 521314 |
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it will make a big fat (white w/ slightly... | ||||||
it will make a big fat (white w/ slightly green mass of crystal product). |
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OcoteaCymbarum (Hive Bee) 07-24-04 10:40 No 521371 |
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Why so much peracid? | ||||||
I was just wondering why you used so much formic and peroxyde. Reading post Post 184264 (baalchemist: "Re: Medium scale performic", Methods Discourse) Baalchemist uses about twice as much as you for almost 4 times more iso. Which means that the amount you used could maybe cut down by almost 50% with great yields. His yield using his ratios gave about 81.5%, a bit higher than your 75%. I have no experience with the formic but im reading about it, thats why i ask OC |
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OcoteaCymbarum (Hive Bee) 07-30-04 19:04 No 522825 |
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Performic/hcl hydrolysis is just amazing! (Rated as: good read) |
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Swim did his first performic ever, and will never look back. It's one of the easiest/cleanest protocol I've ever come across. 295 grams isosafrole 90.1 grams Sodium bicarbonate 800ml DCM This was left to stir overnight after preparing my first ever peracid, mag stirrer broke, didnt stir, so it volcanoed off the sep funnel 20 minutes into initial addition. The next morning decided to prepare 215grams H2O2 with 384grams 88% formic(was prepared in 2 half batches, the second one just as addition had started) This was dripped over 2 hours and afforded a good reflux. Initially the solution was yellow, left to stir an extra 26 hours. The solution is orange at that time. Distilled off dcm to be left with 430grams of the glycol, a dark orange syrup. The hydrolysis was performed according to Chromic's ratios: 525ml MeOH 877ml Water 877ml Muriatic acid 430g glycol. The MeOH, water and glycol were combined and temp was brought to 60 celsius when the acid was added. Refluxed for 2.5 hours (around 80-84). Clearly you could see the beautiful oil falling off. Cooled down, bottom layer sep off, top extracted with DCM (around 400 ml). The dcm was then washed 4 times with 700ml water. Once with brine, dcm distilled off. Under vacuum, 251 grams of golden ketone, a beautiful pale yellow came over at 100-102 degrees. I cant wait to aminate it. This is truly an amazing synth for those who have access to formic acid, and thanks chromic for that easy hydrolysis. I had never tried with sulfuric and I wont ever have to. My estimation is that an extra 5% can be pulled off easily by reducing losses during washing the DCM. I was under time constraint and it seems it always possible to get some more DCM out of the water providing you sep off and give some extra time for the layers to separate. Maybe washing the dcm/glycol before distillation and hydrolysis could also help. I will do that next time. Someone else should try this, using baalchemists ratios, I got nearly quantitative glycol formation(430/433) |
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ApprenticeCook (Hive Bee) 07-30-04 22:15 No 522867 |
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Access to formic acid? | ||||||
Access to formic acid? This method is next to golden for OTC'ness, formic via method on rhodiums from oxalic and glycerol (if you cant get these two chems otc theres something wrong). Good report OC. -AC Its just my opinion, but no-one listens to me anyway, and rightly so... |
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OcoteaCymbarum (Hive Bee) 07-31-04 07:32 No 522935 |
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All the chems I want | ||||||
I have access to most chems required for most synths here on the hive, so I have no problem getting formic, no questions asked. But ill keep that in mind, if ever I needed, thanks for the tip. And to say I had been running wackers for a while. Never again!!! Comparing the 2 methods opened my eyes. Easier protocol, less washing, less waste, less cash for chems, no benzoquinone breathing, no palladium at 25 bucks a gram, impossible to fuck up, a better yield and easy scale up! The perfect synth IMHO 2) Put in a 2l 3-neck rbf: 196g Isosafrole, 400ml DCM and 120g NaHCO3, prestired for 15 minutes. Started to add performic acid, which was made 1h before with 400ml 30% H2O2 and 620ml 85% formic acid. Added 50cm liebig condenser on top and refluxed for 24h. Yield 284g monoformyl-glycol. I think here weights should be used. So u used about 452 grams of peroxyde(density of a 33%) and 756.4 grams formic acid(density of a 90%) I think u shoud save your formic by using a lot less. I think baalchemists ratios are much less then yours and the same result is obtained. Too much peracid for nothing. 3) In a 2l 3-neck rbf: 284g monoformyl-glycol, 300ml ethanole (96%), 250ml H2O and 250ml HCl (31%) was heated for 2.5 hours with mild reflux, liebig on top. Separated about 180g raw mdp2p. extracted remaining layer with 2x 100ml DCM and combined with raw mdp2p. Stripped off DCM and water, then distilled the rest with water aspirator vacuum. Yield: 164g clean MDP2P Your HCl concentration seems a litlle low, but it seems it stil works fine. Methanol can be used with the same success, and its cheaper for me at least. I used a much lower alcohol to water percentage with the same success, maybe you can save on that 96% ethanol. |
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ApprenticeCook (Hive Bee) 08-01-04 02:50 No 523066 |
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impossible to fuck up Carefull.... | ||||||
impossible to fuck up Carefull.... dont get complacent with this method, it can go ugly easily if your not attentive. It is easier though, im suprised people are still asking about wacker.... OTC of this method is FAR over what any other.... Yeah keep that in mind incase formic sources dry up.... -AC Its just my opinion, but no-one listens to me anyway, and rightly so... |
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abacus (Hive Bee) 08-01-04 04:10 No 523073 |
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Yeah right. Been there done that | ||||||
Apprentice cook, Do some work. Oxalic acid with glycerol is another example of a long and tedious synth that ends up with a formic acid strength of around 33%. For any bees wanting some good formic, heres a tip, go and buy it, forget trying to get it from oxalic acid. Abacus |
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lugh (Moderator) 08-01-04 05:26 No 523082 |
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That Depends on your Technique (Rated as: excellent) |
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ApprenticeCook (Hive Bee) 08-01-04 17:14 No 523148 |
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abacus, if you do the method properly as lugh... | ||||||
abacus, if you do the method properly as lugh said you can get ~55%, you must use anhyd glycerol otherwise your distillate is so dilute its useless. And i dont make it, have tried and get ~55-60%, i buy it no probelms, so the methods inability to produce 80% on its own is of no coincidence to me. Lugh like that method... thanks. Another option should the sources dry up. -AC Its just my opinion, but no-one listens to me anyway, and rightly so... |
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hypo (Quasiquerumodo) 08-02-04 00:04 No 523185 |
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or... | ||||||
...you go the easy way and just buy acetic acid. He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it |
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abolt (Hive Addict) 08-02-04 01:10 No 523199 |
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hypo | ||||||
Does swihypo have any idea on yield differences regarding peracetic and performic?? The more wealth he produces, the poorer the worker becomes - Karl Marx |
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hypo (Quasiquerumodo) 08-02-04 01:28 No 523203 |
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it's about the same | ||||||
afaik the first step is more or less quantitative, it's the hydrolysis that's the killer. the only difference is that you have to wait 4 days for the peracetic to form. keep your formic acid for when you need it (e.g. leuckart). He always lied while on the earth and now he's lying in it |
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