06-19-04 15:07
No 514313
Hi bees [smile, does anybody know how to construct a device to emit a reasonably powerful electron beam? I have been reading about using electon streams to capture alkali metals by sucking them from their respective salts through a thin glass vessel and think this would be a good way to obtain the metals for their reducing properties
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Hive Bee)
06-19-04 15:12
No 514314
Your TV contains a powerful electron beam generator. UTFGoogle to find out how it works.
BTW, can you give me the exact references where you've found this reaction? I've never heard about it.
(Newbee)
06-19-04 15:24
No 514316
www.sciencemadness.org the thread is unconventional sodium,
and I quote Bromicacid (thanks bromic)
"The mobility of sodium ions in a soda-lime-silica glass at elevated temperatures is fairly high; if an evacuated bulb of such a glass is dipped into molten sodium nitrate and electrolysis is brought about by bombarding the inside of the bulb with electrons, the circuit being completed with an electrode in the sodium nitrate, then metallic sodium appears in the bulb."
Sounds like a VERY good way to extract quite a good deal of alkali metals
, I'm thinking, for bees that don't have access to alkali metal nitrates, then the nitrite or other salts could maybe be used... It shouldnt bee too hard to scavenge old TV's, they throw em out by the skipfull where I live Anybee want to try with NaCL!!!!! if this works, it's going to probably revolutionise bees getting alkali metals!I don't know if it works for other alkali metals, just gotta try, but I don't reccomend trying it with Li compounds though, if it does work for Li, molten lithium corrodes glass very severely so I have heard.
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Hive Bee)
06-19-04 15:35
No 514317
...erm. Yeah.
Molten glass is about 1000 deg'C. The boiling point of sodium is about 880 deg C. You do know how to handle a stream of hot, gaseous sodium?
wrt your idea of electrolysing molten NaCl: Hot Cl2 is even more fun than molten Na.
(Newbee)
06-19-04 15:44
No 514319
I'm not sure as I get you, The melting point[u] of sodium is quite low, so I don't reckon the glass melting would be too much of a problem, nasty if it happened tho.
As for do I know how to handle hot gaseous sodium, well kinda, in short, run the fuck away very quickly! lol.
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Hive Bee)
06-19-04 16:41
No 514325
Apply normal voltage to the light bulb filament: it will glow white hot. Apply voltage between the filament and the molten salt electrolyte so that the filament is negatively charged. Electrons boil off the hot anode and are attracted towards the positively charged glass envelope. At the same time, sodium ions are attracted through the glass envelope towards the filament, becoming neutralised by the electrons.
This is supposing that the glass envelope of the bulb gets hot enough for ion mobility. It may do. A school physics experiment involves applying a voltage across the length of a glass rod and heating the rod. Before the rod becomes soft, charge flow occurs, causing the rod to emit brilliant yellow light.
Sredni Vashtar went forth,
His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
(Newbee)
06-19-04 16:50
No 514326
This bee is going down to his local waste tip and picking himself up a few old TV tubes! It can't hurt to try this, half the stuff is free ant the NaCl is cheap as dirt!
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Hive Bee)
06-19-04 16:59
No 514329
The glass is too thick, the thing is too big. Try with a small bulb first. An electron beam is created by applying a voltage to a heat filament - this is how thermionic valves work.
Sredni Vashtar went forth,
His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
(Newbee)
06-19-04 17:02
No 514330
I'm no expert in electrochemistry, but do you mean a regular light buld would work? or will a smaller cathode ray tube with thinner glass have to be used?
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Hive Addict)
06-19-04 17:08
No 514332
but what advantage would an electron beam have over introducing the
electrons through an electrode?
sounds like more complicated than necessary.
http://www.animalyawns.com
(Newbee)
06-19-04 17:15
No 514333
I'm not sure if you mean by standard electrolysis or not, but if that's what you mean, I was thinking it would be a lot easier if you could make sodium by ion permeability through glass, as it would suck the sodium into a nice vacuum, which would solve the problems with the sodium doing nasty things in contact with air
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Hive Bee)
06-19-04 17:15
No 514334
but, I think it might work. I mean, use a normal lightbulb. I don't know what type would be best: I suspect something like an ordinary car headlamp bulb might work. (Normal low pressure bulb, NOT halogen, which are high pressure).
You'll need to be heat and cool the bulb very slowly to prevent cracking. You might also need quite a high voltage between the bulb filament and the electrolyte to make it work. You can use alternating current if you want because the bulb will act as a rectifier.
Edit: Hypo, I've read about this being done. You get a glass bulb containing clean sodium metal.
Sredni Vashtar went forth,
His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
(Newbee)
06-19-04 17:21
No 514335
Hmmmm...this calls for some serious experimentation in my lab. What voltage do you reccomend?, also, can you see any special reason to use the nitrate over any other, more accessible salt, such as the chloride?
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Hive Bee)
06-19-04 17:26
No 514337
You'll need 12 V for the bulb filament (or whatever it is rated). You might need quite a high voltage between the electrolyte and filament. You'll just have to experiment and measure the current. It might take mains voltage, it might take a few volts. I don't know. If you use mains, you need to know what you are doing: use an isolation transformer and be really careful.
I'd have thought that the main consideration is melting point of the salt. You might need to get it quite hot to get the glass conducting. Would have to experiment.
Sredni Vashtar went forth,
His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
(Newbee)
06-19-04 17:34
No 514338
I'm thinking, using a low MP eutectic, and I do know to be careful, when I was about 13 I blew all the fuses in the house, I didn't know what I was doing, and I drilled two holes through a mug, put two carbon rods from a battery in, and filled it with molten NaOH, this was plugged directly into the mains with a plug that had it's fuse replaced by a solid slug of lead. You can only imagine the electrical crack noise and the effect on the power supply of my house
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Moderator)
06-19-04 17:40
No 514339
Special glass is required, you probably should read these many references on laboratory scale preparation of sodium using electrolytic vacuum processes before proceeding, if you want to remain well:
Ulmann's Encyklopadae der Technischen Chemie; 4. Auflage, R. J. Bauer, 16, 261 (1978); 9, 64 (1975); M. Bick, 20, 295 (1981); A. Krettler, 13 441 (1977); W. Kuntz and P. Klentz, 17, 146 (1979)
and
W.Y. Shiu et al, J. Vac. Sci. Tech. 11(6), 1131 (1974)
Chloride salts have been used industrially, but only the nitrates have been used successfully in the laboratory. The Mad Science thread, which should have been posted by the originator of this thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewt
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond
(Newbee)
06-19-04 17:44
No 514340
I don't know how to access those articles, it looks like the first will be in german too, and I speak no german...Scheiße!
A politician is like a baby's nappy, it should be changed often and for the same reason.
(Stranger)
06-20-04 03:31
No 514389
Maybe this could help you?
http://www.plans-kits.com/
(Moderator)
06-20-04 09:38
No 514412
It's doubtful that enough sodium could be isolated to do a nano, let alone any more; using this method
This drawing from John Strong's Procedures in Experimental Physics should bee helpful, though it's open to question whether suitable bulbs are presently available 
More details can bee found in pages 531-39 from Chapter 13 of the book by Strong:
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond