08-08-03 04:36
No 452446
From Post 443814 (Lego: "P2Pol from toluene and ethanol", Novel Discourse)
SWIM was wondering about the photoaddition synthesis for P2Pol. The article in question calls for acetone, ethanol, and toluene to be mixed and then irradiated for 24 hours with 450W mercury vapour lamp.
Is it possible to just use direct sunlight for like 12 hours one day and 12 the next or something?
SWIM has an HPS, and was thinking of maybe purchasing a mercury vapour conversion bulb. The HPS is only 150W though.
So my other question is if 150 watts was used instead of 450, then rxn time would be lengthened right?
It would be great to make this procedure work like advertised. Just mix a few hardware store solvents together and shine a light on it. After extraction of the alcohol, it'll just take a simple mix of some photochemicals and about an hour more to have P2P. It's almost to easy.
(Active Asperger Archivist)
08-08-03 11:46
No 452492
Has anybody done any research into this reaction? Perhaps at different wavelengths?
Act quickly or not at all.
(Hive Bee)
08-08-03 12:50
No 452499
Nope, but it's interesting and easily do-able if the procedure is as simple as that.
To follow would simply be a RA using Al/Hg and MeAm? What amine does it produce?
(Hive Bee)
08-08-03 13:34
No 452503
Well, SWIM has some shit in the sun for the second day. SO SWIM will let on what happened, probably tomorrow. WHat does P2Pol smell, look like? I've done tons of research but nothing really gives clue to what it smells or looks like. Am I looking for a color change or something? Guess I won't know for sure until I distill.
To follow would simply be a RA using Al/Hg and MeAm? What amine does it produce?
Meth of course. SWIM isn't talking about aminating the alcohol, but doing a jones oxidation (or whatever) or something similar to strip off that hydrogen. Nothing but ketone left from that my friend.
(Active Asperger Archivist)
08-08-03 14:43
No 452512
Use a different method. Jones is well known, and reliable. However, it also produces chromium salts. Try a different method such as peroxide oxidation or bleach. Do a search on these and oxidation of P2Pol and you'll be surprised at the number of enviro-friendly and OTC methods there are.
Act quickly or not at all.
(Hive Bee)
08-08-03 15:00
No 452517
Yes SWIM already knows about them. SWIM was just gonna go with chemicals SWIM already had on hand. Thanks for the input however, SWIM will probably try a couple of oxidation methods. Lets not get ahead of ourselves though, the alcohol still has to be twerked up first.
(Active Asperger Archivist)
08-08-03 18:35
No 452537
Keep in mind, I'm only giving suggestions. What and how you do things is your own deal. Mostly, I just don't like contaminating wastes. If you do go ahead with the Jones oxidation, please, dispose of the salts properly and safely.
Act quickly or not at all.
(Hive Bee)
08-08-03 23:35
No 452573
Of course. It's not like SWIM has never worked with chromate salts before. SWIM's dealt with much worse trust me.
(Hive Bee)
08-09-03 00:20
No 452579
My guess is that the P2Pol needs to be oxidized.. right? Maybe one should try using the kMnO/AlO3/CuSO4*5H2O methode mentioned some time ago... I've done this on ephedrine to produce methcathione with excellent results...
Maybe one could try this.. it is a very OTC methode...
"Vanity is defintely my favourite sin"
-Devil's advocate
(Hive Bee)
08-09-03 04:22
No 452605
Dammit! Yes SWIM already knows about these oxidations. They were all researched for quite some time now. SWIMs not worried about the oxidation. This damn photosynthesis to get the damn alcohol is what SWIM is stressing over. The other P2Pol synths are not available to the chemist at this time.
Today is the last bit of day SWIM will irradiate the mixture using sunlight. Then a sample of the mixture will be taken and fractionally distilled in micro setup to see what becomes of it.
That reminds SWIM, how long can those (gel I think they are) TLC plates last? SWIM came across an unopened box of TLC plates, but they ae old as hell. We are talking from the seventies here. Are they still good?
(Hive Bee)
08-09-03 10:53
No 452639
Another way to get meth from this alcohol is to do the ritter reaction on the alcohol with NaCN and H2SO4, and get the N-formylamphetamine, which you could then reduce with NaBH4/I2 to get meth. An example of the ritter reaction is on orgsyn where they use it to get phentermine. But better get a gasmask before working with HCN.
(Active Asperger Archivist)
08-09-03 12:36
No 452650
(Rated as: excellent)
1. UTFSE
2. TLC plates don't really ever go 'bad'. They may not work as well as when they were originally manufactured (usually only in the case of ones made for a particular substance or mixture) but they will still work for preliminary work.
3. UTFSE!!!
Post 27112 (firecracker: "TLC tutorials?", Chemistry Discourse)
Post 212345 (catastrophe: "Purity Tests via TLC", Newbee Forum)
Post 432737 (ClearLight: "Making your own TLC Standards", Methods Discourse)
Post 432209 (ClearLight: "Question on Hard Layer TLC Binders", Methods Discourse)
Post 401159 (TheBlindGenius: "Using TLC for quantitative analysis", Chemistry Discourse)
Post 380759 (MaDMAx: "Chromatography basics and TLC", Newbee Forum)
../rhodium /psilo-t
Post 108792 (dormouse: "Lab Suggestions -ymir", Novel Discourse)
Post 304601 (Rhodium: "Zubrick TLC Chapter", Methods Discourse)
Post 304827 (LaBTop: "Ahumm,", Methods Discourse)
Post 347588 (ClearLight: "column and plate preparation", Methods Discourse)
Act quickly or not at all.
(Hive Bee)
08-09-03 14:15
No 452660
Whoa, thanks for all those TLC links, they will come in handy.
Ok, a couple of days ago SWIM mixed together 145mL of denatured alcohol (yes SWIM knows that the methanol present will lower yeilds and form some additional alcohols, but SWIM figured since this is so damn cheap and easy it wouldn't matter, plus dist. will separate the wanted alcohol), 55mL of toluene, and 35mL of acetone. It has been placed outside during the day for the past couple of days. We haven't been getting much sunlight, so the reaction hasn't had a chance to REALLY take it in.
Anyways, today SWIM wieghed out the solution (took it from outside, and put it back after weighing), and the weight was lower (not to mention the volume, probably due mostly to evaporation, even though it has been covered for the most part).
When SWIM smelled the shit, at first the alcohol/acetone/toluene was still overwhelming. However after pouring the beakers contents into a grad. cylinder, the smell inside the beaker was different. The majority of tone/tol./alky was poured into the cylinder, so that smell was no longer overwhelming.
What SWIM now smeled inside the beaker was still kind of a strong alky oder, but with a definite hint of something else. The best way I can describe the underlaying smell, was that it smelled like electronics. Like the way circuit boards smell almost. The same smell was noticed in the cylinder after decantation. Again very faint, but noticeable.
SWIM also took a little tiny bit and put it on a plate. After blowing on it for a few minutes, the solvent smells faded, and that electronics smell cam back. A little tiny bit of some clear fluid was left over, and it had that smell. Plus when SWIM rubbed his finger on it, it felt more watery and thin, than the thicker greasy feal of toluene. It wouldn't really evaporate much more with a few more minutes of blowing, and smelled almost nothing like toluene. Although a slight alcoholish smell was still present, it pretty much had the weird electronics smell.
Is this synthesis actually working? Is that smell SWIM smells our alcohol?
08-09-03 15:39
(Rated as: UTFSE!)
(Hive Addict)
08-09-03 16:38
No 452673
P2P = Phenyl-2-Propanone
P2Pol = Phenyl-2-Propanol
08-09-03 17:42
(Rated as: insignificant)
(Hive Bee)
08-09-03 17:54
No 452680
halfkast
P2Pol is 1-phenyl-2-propanol. This is basically P2P with a hydrogen attatched to the oxygen (an OH group), this is what makes it an alcohol. This can be very easily oxidized (or should SWIM say dehydrogenated?), to create P2P, or 1-phenyl-2-propanone. All that needs to happen is the hydrogen removed so the OH group gets turned into just an O. I.e. alcohol to ketone.
(Hive Bee)
08-14-03 17:28
No 453610
Hmm, ok, SWIM finally got off his ass and decided to distill the mixture. It hasn't even really been in any sunlight for the past day or two, and SWIMS pretty sure all the acetone added evaporated.
SWIM setup for distillation, using his vigeruax (sp?) column thingy, and graham condensor. Upon distillation, my suspitions about the acetone evaping all off were proved to be true. The temp proceeded straight to ~64 or so, and stayed their quite a while. About 64-68 the first main fraction was collected (although their really wasn't any definite separation between fractions, it just slowed a bit and temp rose, until next), which was considered to be methanol and toluene/methanol azeotropes. This smells like a hellacious methanol/toluene mix. The next was like 70-74 or so (this was definitely ethanol/toluene mix, which also lasted a while), and after that somewhere around 80. The temp never rose above 80.
The last fraction was the only one SWIM might be iffy about it containing any suspected P2Pol. SWIM stopped distilling by this time, as there was only a sliver left in the still flask. SWIM figured everything else should have distilled over by now, so whatever sliver was left had to be SOMETHING.
WELL the good news is, it is SOMETHING, but SWIM doesn't know what just yet (some tests are in order). SWIM collected about 10mL of a substance that still has a slight alcohol smell, but no smell like toluene at all.
The liquid has a very very VERY slight tinge of what SWIM thinks is sea green? Maybe a small hint of amberness, but oh so faint. The smell is like burning fucking rubber, mixed with that strange electronics smell, and the bite of alcohol.
SWIM is going to do some tests, and post what comes about.
By the way:
DOes P2Pol form an azeotrope with methanol, ethanol, acetone or toluene?
Also, if this did work, 10mL of the alcohol starting from like almost 400mL worth of shit is sorry as hell. But SWIM would have done bettet with better light, as well as having it long enough to react well. Not cloudy or indirect sunlight for few hours each day. Also if care was taken to seal the flask better, SWIM noticed by the end pretty much all acetone was gone, and that is detrimental to the reaction (yes SWIM read through the patent), so that was probably a killer too.
(Wizard Master)
08-15-03 06:02
No 453721
Amalgum; Let me do some experimentation on this and I'll post my results.
(Hive Bee)
08-15-03 08:27
No 453749
Go for it!
Last night SWIM was bored so he took the suspected P2Pol and oxidsed it with H2SO4/dichromate solution. The dark reddish orange chromic acid solution was slowly dripped into toluene/sus. P2Pol with vigorous mag stirring. The reaction flask was also kept in ice bath the whole time. The color had changed from the orangish to yellowish, then brownish, and after sitting a while stirring, dark ass green/brown. So SWIM knows SOMETHING was oxidised here. So far (SWIMS been lazy), all that has been done on that front is the shit was allowed to settle in separatory funnel, and organics separated. The aqueous was extracted a couple more times with some extra toluene, everything was pooled.
The organic extracts are piss yellow in color, and smell VERY FRUITY!!!!! SWIM can catch the scent every now and again just sitting here at the computer.
Things that make your go hmmmm....
(Hive Bee)
08-15-03 10:16
No 453764
amalgum, thanks for the explanation. Didn't want to pollute the thread with an
The sun has a great spectrum, I think you discovered something big.
We'll see what Wiz finds.
(Hive Bee)
08-15-03 21:06
No 453846
Hi all-
seems a better route than hydration of the alkene...will benzodioxole bee tried?
-cfg
all information related for educational purposes only!
no quarter asked, none given
(Hive Bee)
08-16-03 10:04
No 453931
If SWIM had benzodioxole. However, I think that is 3,4-methylenedioxybenzene right? This will only work with toluene derivatives (1-methylbenzenes).
(Active Asperger Archivist)
08-16-03 10:45
No 453933
same thing. you can use the respective diphenolic compound to produce the 1-methyl-3,4-MD-benzene.
Act quickly or not at all.
(Hive Bee)
08-16-03 12:39
No 453953
Yeah thats what I was wondering, if benzodioxole was 1 methylated or not. But you just cleared that up for me
(Hive Bee)
08-16-03 12:40
No 453954
Oh yeah, anyways SWIM was forced to put things aside last night for certain reasons, so SWIM didn't get to distill the mixture yet. SWIM is about to attempt distillation, will post results.
(Hive Bee)
08-16-03 18:55
No 454002
Hi all-
does this compound exist?
And would a methylenation via DMSO/ base/ DCM work?
Would side products/ destruction artifacts bee found in above photosynth using 3,4-methylenedioxy toluene?
-cfg
all information related for educational purposes only!
no quarter asked, none given
(Active Asperger Archivist)
08-16-03 23:47
No 454058
yes.
yes.
try it out and report back.
Act quickly or not at all.
(Hive Bee)
08-17-03 06:36
No 454110
OK, once again SWIM will have to do some tests, but last night SWIM finally decided to workup the result. SWIM finally got off his ass to post it now, after setting up an experimental run of benzoic acid from toluene (write-up on that will come if it works, along with formation of benzoate salt and reaction with formate salt to yeild benzaldehyde).
Now, yesterday SWIM had set the remaining organics outside, so as to evaporate some. After a while though, SWIM was forced to bring it inside cause rain was near. SWIM put it up on a shelf and forgot it for a while.
When SWIM went to go work it up, he found that most of the solvent had evaporated, and blowing on it for like 5 minutes took care of main solvent smell. This remaing liquid was poured into a beaker, and some water was added to it. It floated to the top.
Steam distillation was then done, until around 15mL of the distillate had been collected, and SWIM didn't think anymore oil was coming over.
This was placed inside a test tube, and the top oily layer was sucked off via dropper. This was placed into a grad. test tube.
The result was around 2mL of a very pale yellowish oil (SWIM thinks may still a slight slight slight hint of green?), that still smelled kinda fruity, but had more of the burning rubber/electronics aspect. Shit, SWIM doesn't really know how to describe the smell of this unknown oil, there is nothing SWIM can think of to compare it to.
(Hive Bee)
08-17-03 06:46
No 454112
Will P2P form a KI complex?
(Hive Bee)
08-18-03 12:02
No 454396
A-
try saturated aqueous bisufite solution.
Look for the crystals that should form an addition product with the methyl ketone.
-cfg
all information related for educational purposes only!
no quarter asked, none given
(Stranger)
08-18-03 18:02
No 454434
swim was drifting in thinkland about these posts, and wondered if the refractivity of the mixture itself and the glass container might affect the completeness of the irradiation, resulting in low yields? pondered the idea of jacking the mixture through something like an airbrush held near the bulb, the airbrush and the bulb having a very non-refractive transparent shield protecting the bulb from the spray. The bottom of the rxn chamber to have a drain which returned the collected condensate back through the sprayer. Let it crank for a couple of days and see what comes out?
(Wizard Master)
08-19-03 18:52
No 454601
I have read the journal reference, BUT have some reservations as to the time of mercury vapour light expose.
I'm doing some calculations Atomic Physics, Quantum Theory of Light. (ie. photoelectron)
Quantum Energy (E): E=hf
h = 6.63X10-34 Js Planck's Constant.
f = frequency of the light wave. (lamber)
It does not say, in the journal reference, that they exposed it to mercury vapour light for 24 hours.
(Hive Bee)
08-19-03 20:56
No 454620
A-
try saturated aqueous bisufite solution.
Well, hate to be an asshole, but no shit! SWIM would have if SWIM had some bisulfite.
SWIM tried comlpexing it with KI but it didn't work (as far as SWIM can tell). Eventually, SWIM just said "fuck it" and poured it down the sink. SWIMS gonna try this again probably starting tomorrow. This sucks that SWIM is broke and can't afford a MV yet. The sun sucks ass (esp. when it rains at least once a day here).
Also, this time SWIM is gonna have it in a pyrex erlenmeyer with glass stopper, instead of the pyrex beaker covered with aluminum foil. SWIM beleived the evaporation of the acetone severly hindered this reaction. Didn't think about it like SWIM should first off.