<a href="https://www.the-hive.ws/forum/showflat.pl?Number=489447&page=35&view=&sb=&Search=&vc=&new=&start=0&xrated=y&&URLForums=" title="Click here to show this downrated post">LWR question</a> (Rated as: UTFSE!) </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489449"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> foxy2 (Fragile ego) 02-18-04 05:16 No 489449 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Too the moon man, too the moon... </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> Too the moon man, too the moon... <hr>Its mostly dependant on your skills and reaction size, there is no real answer. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489451"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> Methiah (Stranger) 02-18-04 05:20 No 489451 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> SWIM's skills with P/P are okay. </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> SWIM's skills with P/P are okay. SWIM's done 20 or so RXNs so far. SWIM has lab-grade ingredients, 500 g of E, 500 g of I2, 500 g of RP. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489456"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami (Hive Addict) 02-18-04 05:44 No 489456 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Concrete Facts.... </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> Are equal to the proof beeing in the pudding! Try it you'll like it! Yields as we all know are consistant with ones skill and reliant on many variables....The first one being: How lab grade is lab grade E?...heheheheeee In a properly executed LWR, with the exclusion of all gaaks from the feedstock, yields in the range of 85-90% are consistant in Ibee's Circle. <hr>a little less conversation, a little more reaction </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489458"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> gluecifer69 (Hive Bee) 02-18-04 05:54 No 489458 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Hoy shit Methia </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> 2-18-2004EDIT: Sorry methia misread your post, thought you were talking about reacting those reagents metioned in that post at once. DUH for me. This post is mostly meaningless. Dude if you are using lab grade red then you are using two-thirds to much red. If this is true and you have performed successful rxn's this way than that means excess red can't harm a rxn. I suggest you go to the stimulants forum FAQ. With the wieght of the precursors you suggest, it would seem like the reaction be a very violent one, with little or no heat required. In swims opinion excess red(in that ridiculous amt.) would have to create by-products. I think in a post from WizardX he metions that it can contribute to excess azirdines. I would recommed UTFSE for that particular post. <hr>absorb what is useful, reject what is useless </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489463"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> foursixmethod (Stranger) 02-18-04 06:15 No 489463 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> concrete facts; here's one </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> Swim has listened to the teachings of some of the greats, but it took listening to wareami and geez talk about the results of the LWR. Swim has been a bircher for years until he diecided to try a rp/i rxn. When did this he still wanted to have it quickly, so started out doing hot and fast. Well after talking to wareami about the benefits of the LW and finally trying one swim will never done anything but. After doing 18 rxn's swim in the last 4 have averaged 55%, 63%, 63%, 40%(had a spillage, duh) and the last was the biggest return of any, 67%. This has produced some of the cleanest gear swim has experienced. All of swim's rxn's are with otc precursers, clean as clean can be because swim listened to his fav teachers. So from a newbie to this form listen to the masters and use tfse and one can't got wrong. later, 46method <hr>free to be me </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489467"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> Methiah (Stranger) 02-18-04 07:07 No 489467 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> SWIM knows better than to add an equal amount... </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> SWIM knows better than to add an equal amount of RP to a reaction. If the yields are as high as 90 percent, that would make the LWR worthwhile. If, on the other hand, the yeilds are more likely to be between 55 and 67 percent, as stated by foursixmethod above, then Worlock reports similar yields, if not better, from P/P in post # 109105 </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489478"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> kris_1108 (Hive Bee) 02-18-04 08:47 No 489478 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Different ratios with LWRs </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> >>SWIM's skills with P/P are okay. SWIM's done 20 or so RXNs so far. SWIM has lab-grade ingredients, 500 g of E, 500 g of I2, 500 g of RP If you LWR'd 500gms of pseudo you could get away with like 200gms of RP. After a LWR, the 'meth' would bee more % meth and less % un-reduced intermediates like iodo-meth. Surely you would re-xtalize this amount; the loss after re-xtalization would be noticeably less than that of P/P cooked meth. Many would agree that a LWR would be most suitable in any case, especially with such large amounts of pseudo. If I could get the precursors I would reflux that amount for 48hrs and follow up with NP washes and a steam distill, and add NP to the distillate and wash the distillate, and then gas or titrate for meth. And then do a slow re-crystalization or two. (Thanks Bio for that process <img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15">) But as if I'd ever get to do that <img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="Crazy" heigth="15" width="15"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489549"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> geezmeister (Of Counsel) 02-18-04 16:06 No 489549 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> yields from the LWR (Rated as: good read) </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> I have had yields of meth from LWR that weighed almost 82% of the weight of the pseudo HCl reacted. Granted, I did every trick in the book on those reactions to keep from losing any yield. I have had several reactions with a yield by weight of the pseudo HCl reacted of nearly 80%. Yields in the high 70% range are commonplace if you work carefully. Before you dismiss these yields as insignificant, consider that meth HCl weighs about 82- 83% of the weight of pseudo HCl. Any yield above 80% 0f the weight of the precursor is knocking on the door of complete reduction. There is a little more to the story that this, however. The weights I have given are weights of recrystallized methamphetamine HCl. These are not raw yields. The loss in weight to the recrystallization process has been as little as a quarter gram out of 27 grams of meth HCl, although that has been my best to date. My yields have consistently been higher with the LWR than the dryer, shorter cooks. The yields have been consistently higher with the longer cooking times, up to 48 hours. Granted, the yield increases at a decreasing rate right from the start, but there is a noticeable improvement in the product between twelve and twenty four hours, and even a noticeable improvement between twenty four and thirty six hours. Forty-eight hour cooks remain as truly amazing vehicles to superb dope. Do one and let it convince you of its merits. I need not detail the reasons. They will be apparent from the first use of the meth so produced. I have invented and relied on so many excuses for not doing long wet refluxes when doing rP reactions I cannot remember all of them. Suffice it to say that my first 36 hour LWR, and my first 48 hour LWR, persuaded me of the error of my ways and made me realize my excuses for not doing long refluxes were just that-- excuses. <hr>mostly harmless </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489745"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> morpheus (Hive Addict) 02-19-04 17:38 No 489745 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Higher Yields </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> Read Geezmeister's post and believe. Swim was getting 50-60% with his electric sand wok and short hot dry cooks with push-pull unit. After consulting Geez and reading various posts by him(put "parameters" in TFSE)my yields jumped and so did quality.There is no going back. LWR is IMHO the way to go.I now have a mentor. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489890"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato (goat) 02-20-04 05:46 No 489890 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> nano fb lwr thoughts: </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> greetings, bees. swic had some thoughts to toss out there; not worth a seperate thread, so i hope its ok to toss them here. nano rxns make sense to some bees that definitely aren't in a business, and are only occasional users. otherwize, they suck beecause of handling loses. but one of the advantages of going small, should bee that a shorter reflux will get the job done. the very same job. all the distances are shorter,and there's a higher percentage of surface area of reactants to volume of reactants. under 5 grams, in a small (250) rb flask , may bee done in 24hrs. maybee less. (strictly opinion) its a bit much to babysit after that. i've dreamt of going to bed and ignoring the thing, but it never seems like a good idea. 48 hrs is not something a bee would want to do in a nervous place. smaller is faster </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489906"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami (Hive Addict) 02-20-04 08:04 No 489906 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Sorry Charlie...tastes like chicken (raw???):�� </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> all the distances are shorter,as in shorter reflux will get the job done. Chuck-E: While what the above two statements surmise is partially correct, they contradict the purpose of the LWR. One may as well do a normally ratio'd P/P and just tack on an extra 8 hrs cooking time, thereby fooling onesselves into beelieving that the end result will be the same as if it were cooked for 36-48hrs. The LWR as defined is child's play Chuck-E<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"> Cutting any corners in the areas of time/temp/ratio's negates the purpose, as those areas define the LWR more than any other factor. Ibee can still take a spudwrench<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="Blush" heigth="15" width="15"> to any size rxn and have useable product in under 3hours. That fact alone makes your statement correct. To insinuate that less volume=less cooking time is not correct however. For Ibeeware and The Kidz, the better parts of two years have been spent on R&D and amatuer analysis of this LWR rxn. The tediousness of test sampling specimens at various intervals of 3 day cooks on smaller nano scales was sheer torture, but neccessary components of R&D to arrive at defining consistancies. Much of the research was performed as extentions to extraction R&D! Obviously, Ibee isn't in the "biz", for profit which allowed for the R&D to continue on many smaller nanoscale sized experiments versus just a few largescale rxns over the same period of time. 1gram of pfed takes the exact same amount of time to completely reduce in the presense of HI as 10grams or 20grams. The only differences will be flask size and ratio! I think bees will notice that when the pioneering "Fans of the LWR" (as well as the many converts) offer suggestions or solutions regarding the LWR, relation to batchsize doesn't dictate cooktime/temp or ratio. They are consistantly: �30hours+....UP to and including 48hours �Internal temp 100-120�C(never higher) �1-E:1.2-I2:.08-RP:.05-.08-DH2O BTW...Thank You GeezMonsterWhiplash(Bee-M-W<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15">) for that summery blast in the middle of winter! Eloquent, as usual, in it's detail and delivery of concreteness concerning the facts! <hr>a little less conversation, a little more reaction </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490099"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato (goat) 02-21-04 05:04 No 490099 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> pioneers and such </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> swim got hammered by the hot and fast boys, for his lazy insinuations, a few years ago. i am also a beeliever in the ratio beetween the radius of the reactant's blob, and the time it takes for a meaningfull and reductive encounter. if i had more pride, i'd dig out an old post to this effect that rhodium approved. perhaps it comes down to some sort of showdown, to see who is coming up with the magical gear that can only bee had with 48 hrs refluxing; vs the sub-magical gear that can bee had in less time, by reducing the radius of the rectant's blob. i worry about people staying up for 48 hrs, doing something new, and highly illegal. and i worry about them not bothering to stay awake to check on that very slow reflux. but, isn't done done? doesn't the quality and return at the end tell the story? if not, then how can we not bee tempted to see the end results of a 96 hr. reflux? i stand by my point, and, i am not offended. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490161"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami (Hive Addict) 02-21-04 16:57 No 490161 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Concrete Boots...that'll fix `em! :�� </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> J/K Biz: I fully understand the points beeing made and the concerns derived from those standpoints. I can only state the facts from Ibees perspective and experience in dealing with both rxns. The difference in quality and quantity will not convert a soul unwilling to investigate and confirm for themselves the benefits! You'll recall that Ibee took alot of heat in the beginning regarding these proposals on this and had it not been for the confirmations of Geez first, coupled with the suggested principals that were handed down on numerous occassions by Osmium and Rhodium, Ibee'd still be the only benefactor of this method. In most cases when someone needs to prove something they flip a sample on deck to change minds. Unfortunately we can't do that here. But if Ibee could he'd travel to every bees wouldshed and show them the difference! Forget quality and yield! The final work-up alone is enough to convince! That is the first sign of something different. This shift from the hot-fast p/p to the gentler, no maintenance, LWR is so easy and simple I gauranteed it would convert all that sincerely put forth the effort to duplicate it and apply it in practice. I still stand by it 100%. I also endorse the noticable differences that are inherent with adopting the mindset needed and carrying through without cutting corners. Many will bee tempted by the fact that the rxn can be completed in less time. Just because they can! Ride it out one time then cum back and let us know how impressed you are! That's all! If bees can't safely wait it out, then by all means, it's not a reaction they should employ! The day they are able to safely conduct the intial run as outlined, is the day they will wish they'd been in a better position to give it a GO all along! Patience Pays, but in my wildest dreams I'd never thought the payoff would be half as hefty as the ones experienced by employing an extra 24+ hours to the rxn! A properly executed LWR should never be pulled before 30hours. IMHO. Unreacted product was found in runs pulled between the 24 and 30hr marks recorded by Ibee @ steady external 120�C temps. That's Ibee's take on this rxn and thares no turning back from "As good as it gets" for him. Ibee couldn't be payed to trade off the differences in his personal head stash gear! If it were a Bizness, it might prove impractical and overly time consuming but that's not Ibee's case. And those that are in the biz should at least experience the difference and I'd be willing to bet that they'd cook less and make as much $ casue they couldn't beat off the customers from beating down their doors to meet the demand! If ya got joe smo's clam house selling fish they snag from the poluted bay in town and down the street ya got The Trout factory that farms thier fish from the deep blue ocean but takes two months to haul the fuckers to shore, Who do ya think is going to do the best biz when they both have the same $17.99 dinner special every night? Okay....I'll quit! But I don't have a fishstand here....the LWR stands on it's own merit so I won't defend it! But I will state the facts as I see them and let ya'll decide what's best for you!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"> And Biz, we GO way back and I would never allow my character to be offended as I wouldn't ever intentionally offend yours! If we agree to disagree, I would never take that personal as I hope you wouldn't! And just to show ya the my oldztimerz disease hasn't kicked in fully yet.... Tell swimmy "Quit Using Tap Water"...it contains minerals that tip the scales ware accuracy is needed!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"><img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"> <center><img src="../picproxie_docs/000489447-file_pxxi.gif"></center> <hr>a little less conversation, a little more reaction </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490171"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato (goat) 02-21-04 18:04 No 490171 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> well </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> just a reminder that it isn't a hot and fast rxn swim is talking about here. its a little, bitty, 24 hr, wet reflux. in the pre-approved ratios. not too exciting to watch; couldn't find any unreduced gear in it. i suppose in 48 hrs, something else may have happened. what say thee to 96 hrs? how do we draw the line? </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490181"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami (Hive Addict) 02-21-04 18:49 No 490181 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> With a crayon.... </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> Draw the lines with a straw or rolled UP $100 Bill! That's how Ibee does it!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"> You draw the line at 30hours...not below! This gives ample headroom for the intermediates to be cooked off and for full reduction to take place! Now Ibee is strapping himself UP to the WhippingPost voluntarily for the punishers WizX, Ballzofsteel, and Orgy because he's still not done the suggested "Make The HI first" bit. And that act alone may shave some time off the completion time now that more is known about the benefits of making HI first! It's believed to reduce the amount of intermediates created to begin with! When that confiming data comes in, it will be reported in the newest LWR write-up slated! Gaak is not the only cause of emulsions/emotions<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/shocked.gif" alt="shocked" title="Shocked" heigth="15" width="15">. Unwanted Intermediates contribute to those emulsions as well! That is why it's stated that the improvements noted will first be seen in the lack of emulsion and ease of workability in the final work-up. The quality and yield are just perks from cooking off the intermediates!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"> Clear interface work-UPs are the bomb! <hr>a little less conversation, a little more reaction </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490337"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato (goat) 02-22-04 08:33 No 490337 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> no emulsion, yet some polymer in the end </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> the only thing that bothers me about this discussion, is that i'm sort-of hearing that the size of the rxn is not a factor in this calculation. of course it is! and for some of the same reasons that a 20lb turkey needs to cook longer than a 1/4 lb hotdog. but i don't want to get misconstrued in this, and have to bee a poster boy for impatience, beecause that's totally not where i'm coming from. i should care more, and look this up, and provide links with charts and graphs. one of the curves would bee heat; one time; one size. i'm surprised that there's anything arguable about that. now there was a rumor floating around, that after enough hot time, some long chain polymers would crap out and beecome removable. if so, the 48 hr reflux should beecome essential. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490386"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami (Hive Addict) 02-22-04 17:08 No 490386 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Rate vs Heat </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr>the only thing that bothers me about this discussion, is that i'm sort-of hearing that the size of the rxn is not a factor in this calculation. of course it is! and for some of the same reasons that a 20lb turkey needs to cook longer than a 1/4 lb hotdog.<hr></blockquote> Tsk...Tsk...CharliesBud: That's cheatin! It's not fair using the same analogy Ibee used to get bees to switch And I might bee skinny but I'm not 20lb's Mr.PotatoeHead<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"><img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="Smile" heigth="15" width="15"> Also...Baking things require heating from the outside in. Not so with this rxn! It's exothermic remember! Kinda like me....I cook from the inside out!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"> Whether I'm a hotdog or a turkey is besides the point!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/tongue.gif" alt="tongue" title="Tongue" heigth="15" width="15"> Which reminds me...the altzheimers must be worse than I thought! It just dawned on me that the topic from long ago was about the cleanliness of the utensils and them contaminating the rxn. I think I said something to the effect that improperly washed flasks and such could transfer contaminants and sway the results! Just like washing flasks with soap and the residue left behind could affect the outcome. The same goes for minerals in water!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"> Call me anal! Can't an ounce cook be complete in 3 hours by hot fast/dry p/p standards the same as a 1 or 5gram nano? I rest my case. When considering 36-48hour cooks the window of completion is much larger than say a 3-6 hour cook! 48 hours is plenty to cook a pound. What determines the reduction is the concentration of HI, and the heat of reaction. The ratio to make that HI becomes an important consideration when scaling UP and will determine ware you'll bee in the range of success! So size does not matter as long as sufficient HI is present. Most have considered success as beeing the moment conversion takes place. Between 1-3hrs depending on the heat applied. Higher heats with just enough dh2o to create the HI neccessary to reduce will put any size rxn in success range if ratio is correct. This is what bees have been taught since Ibee was a babeebee! That is how Ibee learned! Now we come to find that the envelope of success can be achieved with more dh2o and lower heat, just enough to maintain the recycling of HI after it's produced, and time added on to compensate for the added dh2o and lower heat. It's a gentler rxn. The influencing factors are not the size of the rxn! A 4 ounce cook will be complete in 48hours! They do it in the hot/fast p/p rxn successfully! Now we need to define success! Is a product any better using the Gentler LWR when compared to the product produced by the hot/fast p/p? Absolutely! What is the optimal time for any size rxn? YEP....you said it! 48hours! But because we can pull it at 36hours and have usable product that shows marked improvements over the hot/fast p/p we do! Is that as good as it gets? No! It's tough enough convincing bees to develope the patience necessary to adopt the mindset of lowering heat/adding dh2o then tacking on an additional 30 hours to something they've been doing for years in 4 hours! Do you see the irony in that? Okie Dokie....now you have bees like Geez and Ibee doing research that can possibly shave some of that precious time off the rxn and still walk away with "As Good As it Ghets" product. The best time Ibee's been able to pull off was 30hour! Ibee's heard from other circles that 24hrs came close and all appeared to be reduced 100% but their descriptions lead Ibee to believe that some intermediates and iodosides might have been present, which is what Ibee discovered from his research. Now obviously, bees all know how hard aquisition has become and the larger rxns have more at stake and it's best to gaurantee the best possible end result for those adopting to run the WetDream(LWR). Ibee pushes everybee toward the 48hour mark in those cases, even though they could pull it at 36 and walk away with usable product! <blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr>now there was a rumor floating around, that after enough hot time, some long chain polymers would crap out and beecome removable. if so, the 48 hr reflux should beecome essential. <hr></blockquote> There is alot of truth to this and Ibee has proved it on numerous occassions with running less than pristine clean feedstock and walked away smiling! And Biz: Many fail to realize the extent of what went on behind the scenes at UP-AWE-NITE labs in order to determine "best vs worst" case scenarios in order to determine what exactly sets the bar and why the bar is set ware it is! Granted, most must take this nformation at face value. In face of speculation, it's left to the bees to determine it's merit and value to them! The benefits are such that they must bee experienced by following the guidelines experienced and shared. Credibility isn't an issue from ware Ibee sits because he knows that the times, temps and ratios being handed down will stand on there own merit and bees will begin the shift in mindset for those unbelievers holding contempt prior to investigation. While some of the mechanics of the Longwetreflux remain a mystery to Ibee chemspeak-wise, the end results tested at various intervals up to and including 7 days are proof enough to Ibee ware that mark is. Many have confirmed and been converted and all a bee has to do is read others reports to see the similarities. fourtyeight hours is optimal! <hr>a little less conversation, a little more reaction </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490394"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> SHORTY (Hive Addict) 02-22-04 17:30 No 490394 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Another reason for the longer rxn </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> The red phosphorus releases hypophosphorous and phosphorous acids at a very slow rate and this plays a big role in the longer rxn time. In the long wet reflux the red phosphorus releases these acids at a slow steady rate. For example, the rp releases hypo which reacts with the iodine to form HI and phosphorous acid which will also react with the iodine to form more HI and phosphoric acid while at the same time more hypo is being released and the process continues until either the rxn is stopped or all the rp has been consumed. This is why hypo rxns are so much faster because instead of waiting for the hypo its all there to react. This also explains the need for very clean pseudo when using hypo. This may not bee true but its what i have come to beleive from what i have experienced and from what i have learned through research. Heres a link to the source of the hypo being released at a slow rate. <a href="../rhodium/pdf /chemical_behaviour_of_red_phosphorus_in_water.pdf" target="_blank" title="Jump to this external site">../rhodium/pdf /chemical_behaviour_of_red_phosphorus_in_water.pdf</a> <hr>It wasn't Me! </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490427"></a><a name="last"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> popi (Stranger) 02-22-04 21:27 No 490427 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> time vrs heat </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> Great work, as usual mate!. You are right.Slow and easy wins the race.If unable to watch for a full 48 hrs,whatdo you think the exact________ amount of H2o is required?(minimum)0.8-...>? Wareami thanks for all that salt-sweat info! <hr>the walls have ears </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490480"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami (Hive Addict) 02-23-04 01:50 No 490480 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> DH2O </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> The window of success can still be peeked through at .05ml per gram of E. This rxn is a set it forget rxn and Ibee has never had any adverse affects from using that ratio in up to 72hr cooks. Others use .08ml per 1g E and that's fine as well. Even though it's set it forget it style, Ibee adopted early on to make 8-10hr check points to squeegee down the flask sides to keep the reactants from building up too much on the glass! Shorty: Thanx for that link! Don't recall seeing it before. On my way to check it out! <hr>a little less conversation, a little more reaction </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490522"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato (goat) 02-23-04 04:46 No 490522 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> 24 hrs on small amount ain't hot and fast </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> wareami, i can see that i don't have the strength to furthar debate this. i'm supposed to bee on the couch, spewing. btw, why assume dh2o wasn't used? but i yield, oddly, beeing a fan of slow and wet and boring from awhile back. and if swim ever dreams again, it'll bee 49 fucking hours! even if its only a gram. i wonder what one of the real chemists would say about this debate? <hr>love ya', bro </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490526"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> Phlegm (Newbee) 02-23-04 04:59 No 490526 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Two questions always come to my mind </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> when reading these thead types. 1) Why is automatically assumed a hot reflux is done dry? A hot WET reflux of 5-10 hours will produce excellent yields and quality of meth HCl; and without having to piss around with this stuff for 3 days and without having to worry about burning down your house while you sleep. 2) Why does virtually everyone call their long wet thing, incubated at 100 C, a reflux? It certainly is not a reflux. A reflux of a hydriotic acid based reduction will involve a reaction temperature of approximately 127 C. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490532"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato (goat) 02-23-04 05:28 No 490532 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> evidently not </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> even water heated to under 100 c will make vapours that leave the flask area, condense and drip back down into the action. i'd like to agree with you, phlegm, beecause you were sorta backing my side of the debate, and i admire your name, but, for some reason, it seems to work beelow that temp. and with water weight 80% of 'e' weight. strange thing, really. what about reflux in low pressure at lower temp? does it count, or is the heat what counts? <hr>so many factors, so much subjective analysis. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490539"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> SHORTY (Hive Addict) 02-23-04 06:04 No 490539 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> A good analogy </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> I think it was Rhodium who said.. "if it takes 10 minutes to boil 1 egg, would it take 20 minutes to boil 2?" Ware, I found that doc along time ago and finally got Rhodium to put it on his site. It really is good information and seems to bee from a reliable source. Let me know what you think of it. <hr>It wasn't Me! </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490547"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami (Hive Addict) 02-23-04 07:18 No 490547 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Debait??? </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> First off...the main controversy that surrounds this subject is that few are really equipped mentally to adjust their mindset to practically applying it and doing the comparison tests openmindedly. It's easier for many to continue achieving what they are accustomed to under the same rxn conditions! Since I agreed to participate in these so called debates, my aim isn't to let anyone down, even though I'm the worst spokeperson when it comes to expression and brevity. I'm sure several are falling of their chairs at the display of consise thoroughness devoid of AWE Wareamiese lately, But hey...I'm trying! I've been against the term "reflux" attached to this rxn style from the outset. But for lack of a better term and the similarities to "refluxing" by definition, whoami to buck the system?<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="Blush" heigth="15" width="15"><img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"> It works! All the ARRRRGuments seem to revolve around trying to incorporate every possible way to hang onto the old familiar anyway a bee can and apply it to this rxn style! I keep telling bees as I have from the GhetGO that the slightest deviations in time and temp result in a different product! Sure it's the one that can be sold or consumed and nodifferent that what they are use to! They can't tell a superior product until they themselves expose themselves to it! The only way to do that is by making it themselves cause they sure as hell won't buy it off the street until the majority start cooking it this way! <blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr>btw, why assume dh2o wasn't used?<hr></blockquote> Because that's the essiest, most convenient comparison. It's what the elders handed down to Ibee and what wet his feet! Unless you take for example the arguement phlegm is trying to propose! Let's address that as well while we're here... <blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr>1) Why is automatically assumed a hot reflux is done dry? A hot WET reflux of 5-10 hours will produce excellent yields and quality of meth HCl; and without having to piss around with this stuff for 3 days and without having to worry about burning down your house while you sleep.<hr></blockquote> Key words there are HOT!!!! That is the only way a bee can alter the time in this rxn! The problem with this will only be experienced and noticed by what many describe as "Whacked Out Tweeker" types that for whatever reasons are sensitive to the Psychosis sides associated with hot cooks and certain impurities present! There has been enough evidence provided here at the hive that confirms that association. Obviously, if you're not affected by this, how would you know? Ibee knows because he's sensitive to it and can produce product that doesn't affect him in that way if the heat stays low enough! This brings us to the impurities, aziridines, iodosides, dimers, and a slew of others only the forensic and chemists can spew forth with any kind of authority and accuracy. Ibee associates this missing tweekin syndrome directly with heat in excess during the cooking process and the logical conclusion lay somewhere in the possibility that those side impurities get cooked off over time! What is the exact time window they fall off? Fuck if I know! How many GDamn rxns ever run identical? But to be safe and gaurantee product doneness in a less toxic state, we go with what works. This LWR rxn has run identical several times for Ibee and that is all the confirming consistancy he needed to warrant taking UP the cross and delving deeper into explaining the benefits and the process itself, the best he can. Many have adopted this LWR without question and most every one has claimed it's the best switch they ever made. As I said....I'm not defending this rxn, per-se. I'm merely answering the questions others are too occupied conceptuallizing why it's inferior to their tried and true method to find out for themselves! It's almost reminicient of the Tetra-scapades from daze of yore<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"> and trying to convince others of the merits and benefits in applying that solvent to battle polymers and antihistamines in extraction! Just do the LWR rxn as outlined and if it fits you're liking and tastes, help your brother/sis bees out and spread the word! If it aint your cup of tea, GO with what ya know! Ibee certainly won't lose any sleep! That's gauranteed! Chuck-E(saycheeze<img src="../picproxie_docs/000489447-file_naeg.gif">)...luv ya too bro! <hr>a little less conversation, a little more reaction </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490590"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> WmPerry (Stranger) 02-23-04 15:49 No 490590 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> Interrupt rxn, Sleep W/both Eyes closed? </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> i hesitate to pipsqueek into this thread, but might'nt one simply kill the heat on rxn, go to bed/leave house etc. without fear of catastrophe, and restart when you could pay appropriate attention? my last 24 hr rxn's gigantic improvement over12hr proved to me that my next will go 48. But i aint gonna baby sit it 2 days running. thanks for the knowledge, all. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490593"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> clandestine (Stranger) 02-23-04 16:04 No 490593 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> YES </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> There is no problem as far as swim knows..Just keep your condenser capped off and let no vapors escape. Also keep tabs and dont skimp on the time.. 36 hours atleast. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490605"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> SHORTY (Hive Addict) 02-23-04 17:51 No 490605 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> You really don't have to babysit the lwr... </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> As long as you keep the temp below 120C and have sufficient water in the rxn then there is no need to babysit the rxn. Just look in on it every 8 hours or so and you'll be fine. It's really not much different than your hot water heater or other appliances that are on all the time. I mean the only problem that could arise is an electrical short circuit in your hotplate but with a decent hotplate with an inline fuse or circuit breaker it should be just as safe as any other appliance. Considering you don't have any pets that might get curious and knock your flask over while your gone! <hr>It wasn't Me! </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490660"></a><a name="last"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> geezmeister (Of Counsel) 02-23-04 23:20 No 490660 </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> babysitting the LWR </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> With care taken to make good seals as needed, equipment in good working order, and a thermally-limited heat source, you can leave a LWR on its own and return after the annointed thirty six or forty eight hours and work up what you have. A bad pump or a leaking seal can ruin the fruits of your pseudo extraction labor, and a heat source without a thermal limit switch could cause a fire. The heat source I use for untended reactions is a cool-touch deep fat fryer with an attached lid that covers the grease while the unit is in operation. It has its own thermal limit switch. I modified the lid to hold the flask in place with a nylon wire tie snugged around the neck. The condenser is held by a clamp in a lab stand and I add wire ties to the water hoses to the condenser if I am leaving it unattended. I have never lost a lwr to lack of attention using this setup. I did lose one done on a hotplate when the flask-to-condenser seal failed and the reaction ran dry while I was gone. I would likely have lost this reaction if I had checked it every four hours or so. My point is that with appropriate equipment and reasonable precaution, the risk from leaving a lwr untended is not that great a risk. It will never be risk-free, and I will never recommend that anyone leave one unattended or unwatched for long periods, because as sure as I did, someone would do one using an electric skillet with a malfunctioning thermostat and burn down the neighborhood, blaming me for saying it was safe to do. There will always be some risk involved in leaving anything like this untended. You can control the nature and type of risk you take. That said, I have done a number of 36 and 48 hour refluxes without so much as even checking on them once during the reaction. I usually check them at least every eight to ten hours, but rarely do anything besides changing the water in the ice chest for cooler water. If you use your head, good equipment with thermal limit switches, and take reasonable precautions, this type of reaction can be done and done safely without constant supervision. Do the synth several times to find the weaknesses of the system you use, learn the failure points, and get a feel for how the system operates. After you do a few that need no tending, you will feel more secure about letting it run without watching it all the time. If doing a lwr means the synth must be unattended for periods of time, accept that fact, and plan accordingly. Your equipment can be set up to allow unattended operation. This is entirely "doable." If you doubt the integrity of the seals or equipment, turn the heat off until you return. Do not let the idea of having to watch the flask for two days deter you from this method. You will not have anything to watch, nor will you need to watch it. Plan so that you can leave it alone to take care of other things. But use what common sense and good judgment you have in doing it, and think failures out so they are not emergencies. <hr>mostly harmless </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> </body> </html>

LWR question , Hive Stimulants


		Methiah 02-18-04 04:55				<a href="https://www.the-hive.ws/forum/showflat.pl?Number=489447&page=35&view=&sb=&Search=&vc=&new=&start=0&xrated=y&&URLForums=" title="Click here to show this downrated post">LWR question</a> <br> <i title="This post has been downrated by the moderators">(Rated as: UTFSE!)</i> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489449"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> foxy2<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Fragile ego</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 05:16</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489449]">No 489449</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Too the moon man, too the moon...</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> Too the moon man, too the moon... <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>Its mostly dependant on your skills and reaction size, there is no real answer.</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489451"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> Methiah<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Stranger</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 05:20</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489451]">No 489451</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">SWIM's skills with P/P are okay.</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> SWIM's skills with P/P are okay. SWIM's done 20 or so RXNs so far. SWIM has lab-grade ingredients, 500 g of E, 500 g of I2, 500 g of RP. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489456"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 05:44</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489456]">No 489456</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Concrete Facts....</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> Are equal to the proof beeing in the pudding!<br>Try it you'll like it!<br>Yields as we all know are consistant with ones skill and reliant on many variables....The first one being:<br>How lab grade is lab grade E?...heheheheeee<br>In a properly executed LWR, with the exclusion of all gaaks from the feedstock, yields in the range of 85-90% are consistant in Ibee's Circle. <br> <span title="The signature"><hr><b>a little less conversation, a little more <sub><font color="red">re</font color="red"></sub><font color="blue">action</font color="blue"></b><br></span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489458"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> gluecifer69<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Bee</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 05:54</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489458]">No 489458</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Hoy shit Methia</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> 2-18-2004<font color="red">EDIT: Sorry methia misread your post, thought you were talking about reacting those reagents metioned in that post at once. DUH for me. This post is mostly meaningless.</font color="red"><br>Dude if you are using lab grade red then you are using <i>two-thirds to much red</i>. If this is true and you have performed successful rxn's this way than that means excess red can't harm a rxn. <br><br>I suggest you go to the stimulants forum FAQ. <br><br>With the wieght of the precursors you suggest, it would seem like the reaction be a very violent one, with little or no heat required.<br><br>In swims opinion excess red(in that ridiculous amt.) would have to create by-products. I think in a post from WizardX he metions that it can contribute to excess azirdines. I would recommed UTFSE for that particular post. <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>absorb what is useful, reject what is useless</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489463"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> foursixmethod<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Stranger</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 06:15</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489463]">No 489463</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">concrete facts; here's one</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> Swim has listened to the teachings of some of the greats, but it took listening to wareami and geez talk about the results of the LWR. Swim has been a bircher for years until he diecided to try a rp/i rxn. When did this he still wanted to have it quickly, so started out doing hot and fast.<br> Well after talking to wareami about the benefits of the LW and finally trying one swim will never done anything but. After doing 18 rxn's swim in the last 4 have averaged 55%, 63%, 63%, 40%(had a spillage, duh) and the last was the biggest return of any, 67%. <br> This has produced some of the cleanest gear swim has experienced. All of swim's rxn's are with otc precursers, clean as clean can be because swim listened to his fav teachers.<br> So from a newbie to this form listen to the masters and use tfse and one can't got wrong.<br><br>later, 46method <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>free to be me</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489467"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> Methiah<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Stranger</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 07:07</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489467]">No 489467</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">SWIM knows better than to add an equal amount...</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> SWIM knows better than to add an equal amount of RP to a reaction. If the yields are as high as 90 percent, that would make the LWR worthwhile. If, on the other hand, the yeilds are more likely to be between 55 and 67 percent, as stated by foursixmethod above, then Worlock reports similar yields, if not better, from P/P in post # 109105 </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489478"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> kris_1108<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Bee</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 08:47</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489478]">No 489478</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Different ratios with LWRs</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> >>SWIM's skills with P/P are okay. SWIM's done 20 or so RXNs so far. SWIM has lab-grade ingredients, 500 g of E, 500 g of I2, 500 g of RP<br><br>If you LWR'd 500gms of pseudo you could get away with like 200gms of RP. <br>After a LWR, the 'meth' would bee more % meth and less % un-reduced intermediates like iodo-meth. <br>Surely you would re-xtalize this amount; the loss after re-xtalization would be noticeably less than that of P/P cooked meth.<br>Many would agree that a LWR would be most suitable in any case, especially with such large amounts of pseudo. <br>If I could get the precursors I would reflux that amount for 48hrs and follow up with NP washes and a steam distill, and add NP to the distillate and wash the distillate, and then gas or titrate for meth. And then do a slow re-crystalization or two. (Thanks Bio for that process <img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15">)<br>But as if I'd ever get to do that <img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="Crazy" heigth="15" width="15"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489549"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> geezmeister<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Of Counsel</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-18-04 16:06</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489549]">No 489549</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">yields from the LWR</b><br> <i title="This post has been up-rated by the moderators">(Rated as: good read)</i> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> I have <i>had</i> yields of meth from LWR that weighed almost 82% of the weight of the pseudo HCl reacted. Granted, I did every trick in the book on those reactions to keep from losing any yield. I have had several reactions with a yield by weight of the pseudo HCl reacted of nearly 80%. Yields in the high 70% range are commonplace if you work carefully. <br><br>Before you dismiss these yields as insignificant, consider that meth HCl weighs about 82- 83% of the weight of pseudo HCl. Any yield above 80% 0f the weight of the precursor is knocking on the door of complete reduction. <br><br>There is a little more to the story that this, however. The weights I have given are weights of <i>recrystallized methamphetamine HCl.</i> These are not raw yields. The loss in weight to the recrystallization process has been as little as a quarter gram out of 27 grams of meth HCl, although that has been my best to date. <br><br>My yields have consistently been higher with the LWR than the dryer, shorter cooks. The yields have been consistently higher with the longer cooking times, up to 48 hours. Granted, the yield increases at a decreasing rate right from the start, but there is a noticeable improvement in the product between twelve and twenty four hours, and even a noticeable improvement between twenty four and thirty six hours. Forty-eight hour cooks remain as truly amazing vehicles to superb dope. Do <i>one</i> and let it convince you of its merits. I need not detail the reasons. They will be apparent from the first use of the meth so produced. <br><br>I have invented and relied on so many excuses for not doing long wet refluxes when doing rP reactions I cannot remember all of them. Suffice it to say that my first 36 hour LWR, and my first 48 hour LWR, persuaded me of the error of my ways and made me realize my excuses for not doing long refluxes were just that-- excuses. <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>mostly harmless</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489745"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> morpheus<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-19-04 17:38</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489745]">No 489745</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Higher Yields</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> Read Geezmeister's post and believe.<br>Swim was getting 50-60% with his electric sand<br>wok and short hot dry cooks with push-pull unit.<br>After consulting Geez and reading various posts<br>by him(put "parameters" in TFSE)my yields jumped<br>and so did quality.There is no going back.<br>LWR is IMHO the way to go.I now have a mentor. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489890"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">goat</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-20-04 05:46</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489890]">No 489890</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">nano fb lwr thoughts:</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> greetings, bees. <br><br>swic had some thoughts to toss out there; not worth a seperate thread, so i hope its ok to toss them here.<br><br>nano rxns make sense to some bees that definitely aren't in a business, and are only occasional users. otherwize, they suck beecause of handling loses.<br>but one of the advantages of going small, should bee that a shorter reflux will get the job done. the very same job.<br>all the distances are shorter,and there's a higher percentage of surface area of reactants to volume of reactants.<br><br>under 5 grams, in a small (250) rb flask , may bee done in 24hrs. maybee less. (strictly opinion)<br>its a bit much to babysit after that. i've dreamt of going to bed and ignoring the thing, but it never seems like a good idea. 48 hrs is not something a bee would want to do in a nervous place. <br><br>smaller is faster </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post489906"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-20-04 08:04</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [489906]">No 489906</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Sorry Charlie...tastes like chicken (raw???):��</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> <b>all the distances are shorter,</b><i>as in</i> <b>shorter reflux will get the job done.</b><br>Chuck-E: While what the above two statements surmise is partially correct, they contradict the purpose of the LWR. One may as well do a normally ratio'd P/P and just tack on an extra 8 hrs cooking time, thereby fooling onesselves into beelieving that the end result will be the same as if it were cooked for 36-48hrs. <br>The LWR as defined is child's play Chuck-E<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"><br>Cutting any corners in the areas of time/temp/ratio's negates the purpose, as those areas define the LWR more than any other factor.<br>Ibee can still take a spudwrench<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="Blush" heigth="15" width="15"> to any size rxn and have useable product in under 3hours.<br>That fact alone makes your statement correct. To insinuate that less volume=less cooking time is not correct however.<br>For Ibeeware and The Kidz, the better parts of two years have been spent on R&D and amatuer analysis of this LWR rxn. <br>The tediousness of test sampling specimens at various intervals of 3 day cooks on smaller nano scales was sheer torture, but neccessary components of R&D to arrive at defining consistancies.<br>Much of the research was performed as extentions to extraction R&D! <br>Obviously, Ibee isn't in the "biz", for profit which allowed for the R&D to continue on many smaller nanoscale sized experiments versus just a few largescale rxns over the same period of time.<br>1gram of pfed takes the exact same amount of time to completely reduce in the presense of HI as 10grams or 20grams. The only differences will be flask size and ratio!<br>I think bees will notice that when the pioneering "Fans of the LWR" (as well as the many converts) offer suggestions or solutions regarding the LWR, relation to batchsize doesn't dictate cooktime/temp or ratio. They are consistantly:<br>�30hours+....UP to and including 48hours<br>�Internal temp 100-120�C(never higher)<br>�<b>1</b>-E:<b>1.2</b>-I<sub>2</sub>:<b>.08</b>-RP:<b>.05-.08</b>-DH2O<br><br>BTW...Thank You GeezMonsterWhiplash(Bee-M-W<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15">) for that summery blast in the middle of winter!<br>Eloquent, as usual, in it's detail and delivery of concreteness concerning the facts! <br> <span title="The signature"><hr><b>a little less conversation, a little more <sub><font color="red">re</font color="red"></sub><font color="blue">action</font color="blue"></b><br></span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490099"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">goat</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-21-04 05:04</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490099]">No 490099</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">pioneers and such</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> swim got hammered by the hot and fast boys, for his lazy insinuations, a few years ago.<br><br>i am also a beeliever in the ratio beetween the radius of the reactant's blob, and the time it takes for a meaningfull and reductive encounter.<br><br>if i had more pride, i'd dig out an old post to this effect that rhodium approved.<br><br>perhaps it comes down to some sort of showdown, to see who is coming up with the magical gear that can only bee had with 48 hrs refluxing; vs the sub-magical gear that can bee had in less time, by reducing the radius of the rectant's blob.<br><br>i worry about people staying up for 48 hrs, doing something new, and highly illegal.<br><br>and i worry about them not bothering to stay awake to check on that very slow reflux.<br><br>but,<br>isn't done done?<br>doesn't the quality and return at the end tell the story?<br><br>if not,<br>then how can we not bee tempted to see the end results of a 96 hr. reflux?<br><br>i stand by my point,<br>and, i am not offended. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490161"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-21-04 16:57</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490161]">No 490161</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Concrete Boots...that'll fix `em! :��</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> J/K Biz: I fully understand the points beeing made and the concerns derived from those standpoints.<br>I can only state the facts from Ibees perspective and experience in dealing with both rxns.<br>The difference in quality and quantity will not convert a soul unwilling to investigate and confirm for themselves the benefits!<br>You'll recall that Ibee took alot of heat in the beginning regarding these proposals on this and had it not been for the confirmations of Geez first, coupled with the suggested principals that were handed down on numerous occassions by Osmium and Rhodium, Ibee'd still be the only benefactor of this method.<br>In most cases when someone needs to prove something they flip a sample on deck to change minds. Unfortunately we can't do that here. But if Ibee could he'd travel to every bees wouldshed and show them the difference! Forget quality and yield! The final work-up alone is enough to convince!<br>That is the first sign of something different. <br>This shift from the hot-fast p/p to the gentler, no maintenance, LWR is so easy and simple I gauranteed it would convert all that sincerely put forth the effort to duplicate it and apply it in practice.<br>I still stand by it 100%. I also endorse the noticable differences that are inherent with adopting the mindset needed and carrying through without cutting corners.<br>Many will bee tempted by the fact that the rxn can be completed in less time. Just because they can!<br>Ride it out one time then cum back and let us know how impressed you are! That's all!<br>If bees can't safely wait it out, then by all means, it's not a reaction they should employ!<br>The day they are able to safely conduct the intial run as outlined, is the day they will wish they'd been in a better position to give it a GO all along!<br>Patience Pays, but in my wildest dreams I'd never thought the payoff would be half as hefty as the ones experienced by employing an extra 24+ hours to the rxn!<br>A properly executed LWR should never be pulled before 30hours. IMHO. <br>Unreacted product was found in runs pulled between the 24 and 30hr marks recorded by Ibee @ steady external 120�C temps. <br>That's Ibee's take on this rxn and thares no turning back from "As good as it gets" for him.<br>Ibee couldn't be payed to trade off the differences in his personal head stash gear!<br>If it were a Bizness, it might prove impractical and overly time consuming but that's not Ibee's case.<br>And those that are in the biz should at least experience the difference and I'd be willing to bet that they'd cook less and make as much $ casue they couldn't beat off the customers from beating down their doors to meet the demand!<br>If ya got joe smo's clam house selling fish they snag from the poluted bay in town and down the street ya got The Trout factory that farms thier fish from the deep blue ocean but takes two months to haul the fuckers to shore, Who do ya think is going to do the best biz when they both have the same $17.99 dinner special every night?<br>Okay....I'll quit!<br>But I don't have a fishstand here....the LWR stands on it's own merit so I won't defend it! But I will state the facts as I see them and let ya'll decide what's best for you!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"><br>And Biz, we GO way back and I would never allow my character to be offended as I wouldn't ever intentionally offend yours!<br>If we agree to disagree, I would never take that personal as I hope you wouldn't!<br>And just to show ya the my oldztimerz disease hasn't kicked in fully yet....<br>Tell swimmy "Quit Using Tap Water"...it contains minerals that tip the scales ware accuracy is needed!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"><img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"><br><center><img src="../picproxie_docs/000489447-file_pxxi.gif"></center> <br> <span title="The signature"><hr><b>a little less conversation, a little more <sub><font color="red">re</font color="red"></sub><font color="blue">action</font color="blue"></b><br></span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490171"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">goat</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-21-04 18:04</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490171]">No 490171</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">well</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> just a reminder that it isn't a hot and fast rxn swim is talking about here.<br>its a little, bitty, 24 hr, wet reflux.<br>in the pre-approved ratios.<br><br>not too exciting to watch; couldn't find any unreduced gear in it. i suppose in 48 hrs, something else may have happened.<br><br>what say thee to 96 hrs?<br>how do we draw the line? </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490181"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-21-04 18:49</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490181]">No 490181</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">With a crayon....</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> Draw the lines with a straw or rolled UP $100 Bill!<br>That's how Ibee does it!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"><br>You draw the line at 30hours...not below!<br>This gives ample headroom for the intermediates to be cooked off and for full reduction to take place!<br>Now Ibee is strapping himself UP to the WhippingPost voluntarily for the punishers WizX, Ballzofsteel, and Orgy because he's still not done the suggested "Make The HI first" bit. And that act alone may shave some time off the completion time now that more is known about the benefits of making HI first! It's believed to reduce the amount of intermediates created to begin with!<br>When that confiming data comes in, it will be reported in the newest LWR write-up slated!<br>Gaak is not the only cause of emulsions/emotions<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/shocked.gif" alt="shocked" title="Shocked" heigth="15" width="15">. Unwanted Intermediates contribute to those emulsions as well!<br>That is why it's stated that the improvements noted will first be seen in the lack of emulsion and ease of workability in the final work-up.<br>The quality and yield are just perks from cooking off the intermediates!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"><br>Clear interface work-UPs are the bomb! <br> <span title="The signature"><hr><b>a little less conversation, a little more <sub><font color="red">re</font color="red"></sub><font color="blue">action</font color="blue"></b><br></span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490337"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">goat</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-22-04 08:33</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490337]">No 490337</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">no emulsion, yet some polymer in the end</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> the only thing that bothers me about this discussion, is that i'm sort-of hearing that the size of the rxn is not a factor in this calculation.<br><br>of course it is!<br><br>and for some of the same reasons that a 20lb turkey needs to cook longer than a 1/4 lb hotdog.<br><br>but i don't want to get misconstrued in this, and have to bee a poster boy for impatience, beecause that's totally not where i'm coming from.<br><br>i should care more, and look this up, and provide links with charts and graphs. one of the curves would bee heat; one time; one size.<br><br>i'm surprised that there's anything arguable about that.<br><br>now there was a rumor floating around, that after enough hot time, some long chain polymers would crap out and beecome removable.<br><br>if so, the 48 hr reflux should beecome essential. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490386"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-22-04 17:08</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490386]">No 490386</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Rate vs Heat</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> <blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr><p>the only thing that bothers me about this discussion, is that i'm sort-of hearing that the size of the rxn is not a factor in this calculation.<br>of course it is!<br>and for some of the same reasons that a 20lb turkey needs to cook longer than a 1/4 lb hotdog.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Tsk...Tsk...CharliesBud: That's cheatin!<br>It's not fair using the same analogy Ibee used to get bees to switch<br>And I might bee skinny but I'm not 20lb's Mr.PotatoeHead<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"><img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="Smile" heigth="15" width="15"><br>Also...Baking things require heating from the outside in.<br>Not so with this rxn! It's exothermic remember! Kinda like me....I cook from the inside out!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"> Whether I'm a hotdog or a turkey is besides the point!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/tongue.gif" alt="tongue" title="Tongue" heigth="15" width="15"><br>Which reminds me...the altzheimers must be worse than I thought! It just dawned on me that the topic from long ago was about the cleanliness of the utensils and them contaminating the rxn. I think I said something to the effect that improperly washed flasks and such could transfer contaminants and sway the results! Just like washing flasks with soap and the residue left behind could affect the outcome. The same goes for minerals in water!<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"><br>Call me anal!<br><br>Can't an ounce cook be complete in 3 hours by hot fast/dry p/p standards the same as a 1 or 5gram nano?<br>I rest my case.<br>When considering 36-48hour cooks the window of completion is much larger than say a 3-6 hour cook!<br>48 hours is plenty to cook a pound.<br>What determines the reduction is the concentration of HI, and the heat of reaction.<br>The ratio to make that HI becomes an important consideration when scaling UP and will determine ware you'll bee in the range of success!<br>So size does not matter as long as sufficient HI is present.<br>Most have considered success as beeing the moment conversion takes place. Between 1-3hrs depending on the heat applied. <br>Higher heats with just enough dh2o to create the HI neccessary to reduce will put any size rxn in success range if ratio is correct.<br>This is what bees have been taught since Ibee was a babeebee!<br>That is how Ibee learned!<br>Now we come to find that the envelope of success can be achieved with more dh2o and lower heat, just enough to maintain the recycling of HI after it's produced, and time added on to compensate for the added dh2o and lower heat.<br>It's a gentler rxn.<br>The influencing factors are not the size of the rxn!<br>A 4 ounce cook will be complete in 48hours! They do it in the hot/fast p/p rxn successfully!<br>Now we need to define success!<br>Is a product any better using the Gentler LWR when compared to the product produced by the hot/fast p/p?<br>Absolutely!<br>What is the optimal time for any size rxn?<br>YEP....you said it!<br>48hours!<br>But because we can pull it at 36hours and have usable product that shows marked improvements over the hot/fast p/p we do!<br>Is that as good as it gets?<br>No!<br>It's tough enough convincing bees to develope the patience necessary to adopt the mindset of lowering heat/adding dh2o then tacking on an additional 30 hours to something they've been doing for years in 4 hours!<br>Do you see the irony in that?<br>Okie Dokie....now you have bees like Geez and Ibee doing research that can possibly shave some of that precious time off the rxn and still walk away with "As Good As it Ghets" product.<br>The best time Ibee's been able to pull off was 30hour!<br>Ibee's heard from other circles that 24hrs came close and all appeared to be reduced 100% but their descriptions lead Ibee to believe that some intermediates and iodosides might have been present, which is what Ibee discovered from his research.<br>Now obviously, bees all know how hard aquisition has become and the larger rxns have more at stake and it's best to gaurantee the best possible end result for those adopting to run the WetDream(LWR).<br>Ibee pushes everybee toward the 48hour mark in those cases, even though they could pull it at 36 and walk away with usable product!<br> <br><br><blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr><p>now there was a rumor floating around, that after enough hot time, some long chain polymers would crap out and beecome removable.<br>if so, the 48 hr reflux should beecome essential. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>There is alot of truth to this and Ibee has proved it on numerous occassions with running less than pristine clean feedstock and walked away smiling!<br>And Biz: Many fail to realize the extent of what went on behind the scenes at UP-AWE-NITE labs in order to determine "best vs worst" case scenarios in order to determine what exactly sets the bar and why the bar is set ware it is! Granted, most must take this nformation at face value. <br>In face of speculation, it's left to the bees to determine it's merit and value to them! The benefits are such that they must bee experienced by following the guidelines experienced and shared.<br>Credibility isn't an issue from ware Ibee sits because he knows that the times, temps and ratios being handed down will stand on there own merit and bees will begin the shift in mindset for those unbelievers holding contempt prior to investigation.<br>While some of the mechanics of the Longwetreflux remain a mystery to Ibee chemspeak-wise, the end results tested at various intervals up to and including 7 days are proof enough to Ibee ware that mark is.<br>Many have confirmed and been converted and all a bee has to do is read others reports to see the similarities. <br><br>fourtyeight hours is optimal! <br> <span title="The signature"><hr><b>a little less conversation, a little more <sub><font color="red">re</font color="red"></sub><font color="blue">action</font color="blue"></b><br></span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490394"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> SHORTY<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-22-04 17:30</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490394]">No 490394</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Another reason for the longer rxn</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> The red phosphorus releases hypophosphorous and phosphorous acids at a very slow rate and this plays a big role in the longer rxn time. In the long wet reflux the red phosphorus releases these acids at a slow steady rate. For example, the rp releases hypo which reacts with the iodine to form HI and phosphorous acid which will also react with the iodine to form more HI and phosphoric acid while at the same time more hypo is being released and the process continues until either the rxn is stopped or all the rp has been consumed.<br><br>This is why hypo rxns are so much faster because instead of waiting for the hypo its all there to react. This also explains the need for very clean pseudo when using hypo. <br><br>This may not bee true but its what i have come to beleive from what i have experienced and from what i have learned through research. Heres a link to the source of the hypo being released at a slow rate.<br><a href="../rhodium/pdf /chemical_behaviour_of_red_phosphorus_in_water.pdf" target="_blank" title="Jump to this external site">../rhodium/pdf /chemical_beha<wbr>viour_of<wbr>_red_pho<wbr>sphorus_<wbr>in_water<wbr>.pdf</a> <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>It wasn't Me!</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490427"></a><a name="last"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> popi<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Stranger</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-22-04 21:27</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490427]">No 490427</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">time vrs heat</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> Great work, as usual mate!. You are right.Slow and easy wins the race.If unable to watch for a full 48 hrs,whatdo you think the exact________ amount of H2o is required?(minimum)0.8-...>? Wareami thanks for all that salt-sweat info! <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>the walls have ears</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490480"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 01:50</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490480]">No 490480</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">DH2O</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> The window of success can still be peeked through at .05ml per gram of E.<br>This rxn is a set it forget rxn and Ibee has never had any adverse affects from using that ratio in up to 72hr cooks.<br>Others use .08ml per 1g E and that's fine as well.<br>Even though it's set it forget it style, Ibee adopted early on to make 8-10hr check points to squeegee down the flask sides to keep the reactants from building up too much on the glass!<br>Shorty: Thanx for that link! Don't recall seeing it before.<br>On my way to check it out! <br> <span title="The signature"><hr><b>a little less conversation, a little more <sub><font color="red">re</font color="red"></sub><font color="blue">action</font color="blue"></b><br></span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490522"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">goat</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 04:46</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490522]">No 490522</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">24 hrs on small amount ain't hot and fast</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> wareami, <br>i can see that i don't have the strength to furthar debate this.<br>i'm supposed to bee on the couch, spewing.<br><br>btw, why assume dh2o wasn't used?<br>but i yield, oddly, beeing a fan of slow and wet and boring from awhile back. <br><br>and if swim ever dreams again, it'll bee 49 fucking hours!<br>even if its only a gram.<br><br>i wonder what one of the real chemists would say about this debate? <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>love ya', bro</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490526"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> Phlegm<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Newbee</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 04:59</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490526]">No 490526</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Two questions always come to my mind</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> when reading these thead types. 1) Why is automatically assumed a hot reflux is done dry? A hot WET reflux of 5-10 hours will produce excellent yields and quality of meth HCl; and without having to piss around with this stuff for 3 days and without having to worry about burning down your house while you sleep.<br><br>2) Why does virtually everyone call their long wet thing, incubated at 100 C, a reflux? It certainly is not a reflux. A reflux of a hydriotic acid based reduction will involve a reaction temperature of approximately 127 C. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490532"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> CharlieBigpotato<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">goat</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 05:28</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490532]">No 490532</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">evidently not</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> even water heated to under 100 c will make vapours that leave the flask area, condense and drip back down into the action.<br>i'd like to agree with you, phlegm, beecause you were sorta backing my side of the debate, and i admire your name, but, for some reason, it seems to work beelow that temp. and with water weight 80% of 'e' weight.<br><br>strange thing, really. <br>what about reflux in low pressure at lower temp?<br>does it count, or is the heat what counts? <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>so many factors, so much subjective analysis.</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490539"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> SHORTY<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 06:04</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490539]">No 490539</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">A good analogy</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> I think it was Rhodium who said..<br>"if it takes 10 minutes to boil 1 egg, would it take 20 minutes to boil 2?"<br><br>Ware,<br>I found that doc along time ago and finally got Rhodium to put it on his site. It really is good information and seems to bee from a reliable source. Let me know what you think of it. <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>It wasn't Me!</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490547"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> wareami<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 07:18</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490547]">No 490547</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Debait???</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> First off...the main controversy that surrounds this subject is that few are really equipped mentally to adjust their mindset to practically applying it and doing the comparison tests openmindedly.<br>It's easier for many to continue achieving what they are accustomed to under the same rxn conditions!<br>Since I agreed to participate in these so called debates, my aim isn't to let anyone down, even though I'm the worst spokeperson when it comes to expression and brevity.<br>I'm sure several are falling of their chairs at the display of consise thoroughness devoid of AWE Wareamiese lately, But hey...I'm trying!<br>I've been against the term "reflux" attached to this rxn style from the outset. But for lack of a better term and the similarities to "refluxing" by definition, whoami to buck the system?<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="Blush" heigth="15" width="15"><img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="Wink" heigth="15" width="15"><br>It works!<br>All the ARRRRGuments seem to revolve around trying to incorporate every possible way to hang onto the old familiar anyway a bee can and apply it to this rxn style!<br>I keep telling bees as I have from the GhetGO that the slightest deviations in time and temp result in a different product! Sure it's the one that can be sold or consumed and nodifferent that what they are use to!<br>They can't tell a superior product until they themselves expose themselves to it!<br>The only way to do that is by making it themselves cause they sure as hell won't buy it off the street until the majority start cooking it this way!<br><br><blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr><p>btw, why assume dh2o wasn't used?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Because that's the essiest, most convenient comparison. It's what the elders handed down to Ibee and what wet his feet!<br>Unless you take for example the arguement phlegm is trying to propose! Let's address that as well while we're here...<br><blockquote title="Quoted text"><hr><p>1) Why is automatically assumed a hot reflux is done dry? A hot WET reflux of 5-10 hours will produce excellent yields and quality of meth HCl; and without having to piss around with this stuff for 3 days and without having to worry about burning down your house while you sleep.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Key words there are HOT!!!! That is the only way a bee can alter the time in this rxn! <br>The problem with this will only be experienced and noticed by what many describe as "Whacked Out Tweeker" types that for whatever reasons are sensitive to the Psychosis sides associated with hot cooks and certain impurities present!<br>There has been enough evidence provided here at the hive that confirms that association.<br>Obviously, if you're not affected by this, how would you know? Ibee knows because he's sensitive to it and can produce product that doesn't affect him in that way if the heat stays low enough! This brings us to the impurities, aziridines, iodosides, dimers, and a slew of others only the forensic and chemists can spew forth with any kind of authority and accuracy.<br>Ibee associates this missing tweekin syndrome directly with heat in excess during the cooking process and the logical conclusion lay somewhere in the possibility that those side impurities get cooked off over time! What is the exact time window they fall off? Fuck if I know! How many GDamn rxns ever run identical? But to be safe and gaurantee product doneness in a less toxic state, we go with what works.<br>This LWR rxn has run identical several times for Ibee and that is all the confirming consistancy he needed to warrant taking UP the cross and delving deeper into explaining the benefits and the process itself, the best he can. <br>Many have adopted this LWR without question and most every one has claimed it's the best switch they ever made.<br>As I said....I'm not defending this rxn, per-se. I'm merely answering the questions others are too occupied conceptuallizing why it's inferior to their tried and true method to find out for themselves!<br>It's almost reminicient of the Tetra-scapades from daze of yore<img src="../forum/images/icons_lightgrey/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="Laugh" heigth="15" width="15"> and trying to convince others of the merits and benefits in applying that solvent to battle polymers and antihistamines in extraction!<br>Just do the LWR rxn as outlined and if it fits you're liking and tastes, help your brother/sis bees out and spread the word!<br>If it aint your cup of tea, GO with what ya know! <br>Ibee certainly won't lose any sleep!<br>That's gauranteed!<br>Chuck-E(<sub>saycheeze</sub><img src="../picproxie_docs/000489447-file_naeg.gif">)...luv ya too bro! <br> <span title="The signature"><hr><b>a little less conversation, a little more <sub><font color="red">re</font color="red"></sub><font color="blue">action</font color="blue"></b><br></span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490590"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> WmPerry<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Stranger</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 15:49</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490590]">No 490590</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">Interrupt rxn, Sleep W/both Eyes closed?</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> i hesitate to pipsqueek into this thread, but might'nt one simply kill the heat on rxn, go to bed/leave house etc. without fear of catastrophe, and restart when you could pay appropriate attention? <br> my last 24 hr rxn's gigantic improvement over12hr proved to me that my next will go 48. But i aint gonna baby sit it 2 days running.<br> thanks for the knowledge, all. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490593"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> clandestine<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Stranger</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 16:04</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490593]">No 490593</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">YES</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> There is no problem as far as swim knows..Just keep your condenser capped off and let no vapors escape.<br><br>Also keep tabs and dont skimp on the time.. 36 hours atleast. </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490605"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> SHORTY<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Hive Addict</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 17:51</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490605]">No 490605</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">You really don't have to babysit the lwr...</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> As long as you keep the temp below 120C and have sufficient water in the rxn then there is no need to babysit the rxn. Just look in on it every 8 hours or so and you'll be fine. It's really not much different than your hot water heater or other appliances that are on all the time. I mean the only problem that could arise is an electrical short circuit in your hotplate but with a decent hotplate with an inline fuse or circuit breaker it should be just as safe as any other appliance. <br><br>Considering you don't have any pets that might get curious and knock your flask over while your gone! <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>It wasn't Me!</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> <td align="left" valign="top" class="text_bg"> <img src="../forum/images/left_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td colspan="7"><a name="Post490660"></a><a name="last"></a></a> </td> <td align="right" valign="top"><img src="../forum/images/right_top.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td valign="top" align="center" rowspan="2"> geezmeister<br> <i>(<span title="The user's title at the time of posting">Of Counsel</span>)</i><br> <span title="Posting date">02-23-04 23:20</span><br> <span title="Link to this post by using the markup [490660]">No 490660</span><br> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td rowspan="2" width="1" class="vert_ruler"> <img src="../forum/images/hr.gif" border="0" width="1" height="1"> </td> <td rowspan="2"> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="left" valign="top"> <b title="The subject of this post">babysitting the LWR</b> </td> <td class="text_bg" align="right" valign="top"> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td colspan="2" valign="top" align="left"> <br> With care taken to make good seals as needed, equipment in good working order, and a thermally-limited heat source, you can leave a LWR on its own and return after the annointed thirty six or forty eight hours and work up what you have. A bad pump or a leaking seal can ruin the fruits of your pseudo extraction labor, and a heat source without a thermal limit switch could cause a fire. <br><br>The heat source I use for untended reactions is a cool-touch deep fat fryer with an attached lid that covers the grease while the unit is in operation. It has its own thermal limit switch. I modified the lid to hold the flask in place with a nylon wire tie snugged around the neck. The condenser is held by a clamp in a lab stand and I add wire ties to the water hoses to the condenser if I am leaving it unattended. I have never lost a lwr to lack of attention using this setup. I did lose one done on a hotplate when the flask-to-condenser seal failed and the reaction ran dry while I was gone. I would likely have lost this reaction if I had checked it every four hours or so. <br><br>My point is that with appropriate equipment and reasonable precaution, the risk from leaving a lwr untended is not that great a risk. It will never be risk-free, and I will never recommend that anyone leave one unattended or unwatched for long periods, because as sure as I did, someone would do one using an electric skillet with a malfunctioning thermostat and burn down the neighborhood, blaming me for saying it was safe to do. There will <i>always</i> be <i>some</i> risk involved in leaving anything like this untended. You can control the nature and type of risk you take. That said, I have done a number of 36 and 48 hour refluxes without so much as even checking on them once during the reaction. I usually check them at least every eight to ten hours, but rarely do anything besides changing the water in the ice chest for cooler water. If you use your head, good equipment with thermal limit switches, and take reasonable precautions, this type of reaction can be done and done safely without constant supervision. Do the synth several times to find the weaknesses of the system you use, learn the failure points, and get a feel for how the system operates. After you do a few that need no tending, you will feel more secure about letting it run without watching it all the time. <br><br>If doing a lwr means the synth must be unattended for periods of time, accept that fact, and plan accordingly. Your equipment can be set up to allow unattended operation. This is entirely "doable." If you doubt the integrity of the seals or equipment, turn the heat off until you return. <br>Do not let the idea of having to watch the flask for two days deter you from this method. You will not have anything to watch, nor will you need to watch it. Plan so that you can leave it alone to take care of other things. But use what common sense and good judgment you have in doing it, and think failures out so they are not emergencies. <br> <span title="The signature"><hr>mostly harmless</span> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="text_bg"> <td align="left" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/left_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> <td valign="middle" align="center" colspan="7"> </td> <td align="right" valign="bottom"><img src="../forum/images/right_bottom.gif" border="0" height="12" width="9"></td> </tr> <tr class="page_bg"> <td colspan="9"> </td> </tr> </body> </html>