03-10-04 03:48
No 494167
Just searched "tolerance" & got suprisingly little info thereupon. Does anyone have solid info or even a rule of thumb regarding best methods and how long to stay spic'n'spanny-clean in order to reset or at least significantly decrease an over high tolerance to amphs? All i know is a month is not enough.
what is the mechanism of tolerance anyway? that might be a helpful thing to know.
Any insight is appreciated.
(Hive Addict)
03-10-04 06:21
No 494202
I suppose tolerance builds up or diminishes differently in different people.We are all different.Swims general pract. also has in PHD in medicine in addictionology.(he wrote the scripts for a methadone clinic-did interviews with patients-then did his thesis).
His words of wisdom were"Addiction sets in when tolerance
builds up".
If you think tolerance goes away slow with amphetamines be
glad you are not on methadone(I am)glad that is.
The mechanism is your body gets used to its regular amount
and it takes the same amount just to be normal.
To get a buzz you have to take more for the receptors
to act upon the pleasure senses to be satisfied.
(Hive Bee)
03-10-04 14:33
No 494264
from my understanding amphetamine tolerance is mostly a function of dopamine/norepinephrine receptor downregulation, which means a decrease in the number of these receptors per nueron (on nuerons that are in the dopamine/norepinephrine system).
im surprised you find no changes in tolerance after a month of abstinance. i notice changes after only a week or so, but not back to anywhere near what it was several years ago, and it also returns back to a high level after only a day or so of use.
im under the impression it takes a year or more for receptors to increase themselves to levels comporable to a non-user, hence contrary to what N.A. and other programs might say about the benifits of quiting cold turkey, i think a program of gradual deminishment of usage is about the only humane way to gain control of your usage.
(Hive Addict)
03-10-04 18:26
No 494290
This is worth a read and decently relevant Post 319623 (methadist: "Meth Withdrawal", General Discourse)
PS. wmPerry. your middle name isn't refrigerator is it?
erections lasting longer than four hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention
(goat)
03-11-04 05:38
No 494387
would bee curious to know if any person that was a dope addict and had a sudden bout of amnesia would manifest withdrawl the same way, or would have tolerance if they got a shot after losing memory?
(Hive Bee)
03-11-04 07:09
No 494404
He would most definitely suffer from the same withdrawal he would have had without memory loss. The receptor systems responsible for tolerance/withdrawal effects are completely different from the neural net, which is the physical basis for memory ('memory' in this context is the sum of all experiences an individual is able to recall).
(Of Counsel)
03-11-04 08:34
No 494415
I know many disagree, but I do not find meth to be addictive. Cocaine yes. Alcohol yes. Nicotine, damn right. Opiates, sure. Meth? Hell no. About as much as cannibis. I want more, but there is no addictive crave that makes me want more. I'll use it if I have it, because I choose to. If I don't have it, I don't have it. Just like cannibis.
Much of the tolerance you describe is caused by sleep deprivation, dehydration, and poor nutrition--- not tolerance to the amphetamine. Get enough sleep,drink fluids, and EAT some food, and tolerance does not become a problem, even with long term use. Meth is not an addictive substance, absent he sleep deprivation or poor nutrition. You take more to make up for sleep deprivation, or poor nutrition, and it works for a short time, then you want more. You want more to make up for the sleep and nutrition deficits, not because you have a tolerance to meth.
When I run out, I get caught up on sleep. That's all. Takes at most a week without meth at all to catch up on sleep deprivation, as much as I can get caught up. I've slept as much as 14 hours a day for a week, and have slept for most all of three days several times. Once the sleep deprivation deficit is made up, the meth is as potent as ever.
I can take my top-quality product, sleep four hours a night, and stay on a run for weeks using no more than a gram a week. If the stuff isn't top of the line, good as it gets, I have to use more, sure. But the point is I can go for weeks on the same amount day in and day out if I get a base amount of sleep, stay hydrated, and eat.
If I don't sleep, eat, and drink fluids, it takes more and more of my product, of whatever quality, to keep me going. That isn't tolerance. Its sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, and dehydration.
Anyway, that's my take on it.
And I have had more than one monkey on my back before. So I do have a life-experience basis for the comments I make.
mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
03-11-04 11:21
No 494446
geez, i don't doubt that you have not experienced meth "addiction" firsthand, but to conclude that the symptoms others label as "addiction" or "tolerence" are entirely a function of sleep deprivation and poor nutrition does not take account any emperical information other then your own experience.
there is plenty of scientific evidence as well as plenty of antedotal evidence showing that amphetamines can cause receptor down regulation, which in turn leads to tolerance and depressive symptoms when usage is suddenly terminated.
for instance just type "amphetamine receptor downregulation" into google.
on just the first page alone you get these hits from reputable sources which seem to indicate there are indeed pyschiatric/physiological effects from amphetamine withdrawal.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/dynapage.t
(Of Counsel)
03-11-04 14:09
No 494476
I may be but one monkey, as opposed to the two in one of those studies, but I at least can describe the psychological aspects of the neurotransmitter and neurotransmitter receptor deficits in question. I have in fact been part of such a study regarding serotonin receptor deficits in cocaine addicts. (I was not part of the control group.)
I did the Google search you suggested and was basically unimpressed by the abstracts of the monographs it turned up. In comparison to the monographs on serotonin receptor depletion secondary to cocaine addiction the literature on dopamine receptor deficits secondary to amphetamine use is practically nonexistent. What does appear seems to reach very tentative conclusions.
This monkey has experienced the effects of serotonin recpetor destruction, and has experienced episodes of severe clinical depresssion secondary to prolonged deficits of both neurotransmitters dopamine and serotonin. Those deficits were the caused by post traumatic stress disorder depleting my supplies of norephinephrine, which is the precursor for both serotonin and dopamine.
My self-prescribed remedies happen to include frequent use of therapeutic doses of methamphetamine hydrochloride and lots of sex. Might not work for everyone. Seems to work fine for me. As for this monkey, methamphetamine (or for that matter amphetamines in general) have never had what I would call an addictive effect or shown any decrease in effect secondary to prolonged use that was not accompanied by either sleep deprivation or nutritional deficit.
I do not make this observation based on my personal experience alone, but also include my observation of large numbers of tweakers in varying states of sleep deprivation and poor nutrition, and numbers of meth users who seem to go on for years with no ill effects or addictive behaviors from their daily habits. My evidence is anecdotal, to be sure. I have dealt with literally hundreds of people who were methamphetamine and amphetamine users and abusers for many years in my line of work. My ancdotal observations prove little if anything, but do give me a factual basis for my assertion that nutrition and sleep deficits have more to do with "tolerance" to amphetamines than any physical effect of the drug itself.
My opinion, for what its worth-- From a well-studied monkey.
mostly harmless
(Stranger)
03-11-04 15:27
No 494495
What about trying to recapture that first buzz? SWIM has a friend who's first buzz was about 5 years ago in a sex club (Crew). She took a few bumps from a pickup and spent the next twelve hours being pleased like never before imagined. Didn't even realize she was high, just felt so wonderful that she had just discovered how beautiful her body could feel. Hooked up with the same guy the following week, had an even better time. All subsequent events have been less-than.
SWIM's friend has been meth-free for two years now and expects to partake again soon, and is hoping for a replay of previous fireworks.
(goat)
03-11-04 15:34
No 494497
psychological addiction is hard to pin down. habits are made thru frequency of repetition. attachments to habits might vary alot depending on surrounding circumstances. ciggarretes cause trouble for many, me thinks, beecause of how many times a day they can bee experienced; the ritual; the pals that smoke with you, etc. i would expect the nicotine aspect to have much less grip, if it could bee consumed once a day, in a pill...even if it was the same amount of addictive substance.
same with meth use. smokers seem inclined to bee more attached to it, beecause it occupies much more time and comes with more fuss, that merely swallowing a pill in the morning.
i've never noticed any withdrawl of any sort from any drug, ever. but i have felt shitty from using drugs many times.
(Stranger)
03-11-04 15:46
No 494500
Seems that Meth is psychologically addictive rather than physiologically addictive.
SWIB used meth of and off over 2 years or so but never did way too much, tried to eat/rest and so on as normal. And managed to maintain a normal (relative term I know) life. Seems to SWIB this is the very definition of 'recreational drug use'.
However SWIB's friend had a number of self esteem issues, family problems and was in an abusive relationship - they didnt look after themselves, did way too much for way too long and ended up losing everything they had built up in their earlier life and were on the streets.
As someone else said further up the post - a lot depends on the individual, - do they manage to use the drug (recreationally) or do they get to the point where the drug is doing them.
In regards to tolerance: in SWIBs case although it would now take a little more to reach the same 'high' as before it is only a little more and a lot depends upon method of delivery. A little while back SWIB was clean for 60 days and then used a little over a weekend and it was almost like being back new to it again. I heard.
"The road of excess leads to the tower of Wisdom" - William Blake