03-11-04 05:51
No 494390
Did the first synth
(edited with e.hcl amount)
As swim preparing for a LWR he tried one ala curbshot yesterday, but with proper glassware and LabGrade reactants.
But things didnt turn out exactly as planned, so he have some questions the TFSE couldnt answer.
(or at least he couldnt find the answers)
Equipment
1 50ml rb flask
1 three-necked adapter
1 rubberstopper
1 thermometer
1 liebigcondenser (w/ waterbath and pump)
1 heating mantle
Chems
3g LabGrade I2
2g LabGrade RP
1.5g e.hcl
4 drops of dH20
4 Drops HCl
20ml + 20ml dh20
50 ml Toulene
Placed RB in Freezer for 5 min.
Greased all glassware joints.
Mixed chems in following order I,E,RP, h20.
Fitted in condenser and therm (plus cork for the unused opening in the three-neck adapter).
No sponstanious reaction occured.
Added some heat to the mantle.
(The mantle has only three settings, swim put it on setting two. As the themp rose swim switched it to setting one).
The ballon began to inflate, good sign. But it woulndt inflate fully so some gas leeked out of the system
(not too much though).
Swim couldnt see exactly where the leak occured, but checked all joints and all seemed good.
Swim have a supicion though, and that is that the balloon was to "hard" to inflate (as some new balloons are).
1. Are swim's assumtion correct or is there some kind of sealing the glassware swim is unaware of?
The reaction seemed to go ok, but swim read that the gas should be yellow.
My gas was totally transparent, until it came in contact with the outside air.
Then it seemed gray-like
2. Should it be yellow or transparent?
Swim kept on cooking, but as the flask was submerged in the heating mantle it was very difficult
to observe what was going on.
Also the temperature was _very_ difficult to maintain at a certian level.
My glass therm only goes to about 110 c, and swim was afraid to blow up the thermometer. :P
so swim kept adjusting the mantle, but it is slow to respond, as it already was very hot.
So the temp swung from 70 to +110C. Kept it from 90 to +110C the most of the time though...
Swim knows that he probably should use an oilbath, but as the term dosent go higher than 110C,
its difficult to do this as the internal temp of the flask is much lower then the oilbath itself.
And when the reaction is supposed to go @ 100-120 its difficult with my therm...
Also how the **** kan i keep the temp stable with the oilbath?
If the hotplate has setting of 1 the temp still rises, although slowly...
3. How can he keep a stable temp?
Swim read that many use a "candythermometer", but what the hell is that and where might one aquire such an item.
Again swim dosent live in the US, so he was just wondering what kind of store sells this....
As swim plan to do a LWR a stable temp over a long period of time is cruicial.
Swim read in TFSE that people use deep fatfriers, but he cant find one here (swim dosent live in US),
and also coffemachines to keep the temp @ 90C.
4.Isnt 90C too low for this rxn?
Swim stirred a little with my therm, but as stated above he couldnt see the entire flask.
Well, upun inspection after 1 hour he saw that the sollution had done pretty dry.
Too dry he guess, he saw some of the reaction amost had burnt/fastened itself to the surface of the flask.
Swim was told by VE to nix the peroxie and use dh20, but the writeup suggests "With a dropper add 4 drops"
5. His rxn ran dry, should he add more water, and if this is the case , how much?
He tried to recover it anyway and filtered it trough a coffefilter.
He got a yellowish sollution (yeeei) and it turned milky when he based it.
So everything seemed ok (swim is aware that yeilds would suffer greatly in his first rxn,
but was just hoping for _some_ product)...
Did the AB, added som NaCl as he read that it whould help.
Some sort of powder/product already formed in between the layers..
4. What could that bee?
So, final stage. Evaporated h20, got 0.5 grams. 2 guys biotested 0.1 g each. No special effect. Just some heat rushes.
Swim thinks all product was unreacted e.hcl. Swim lives in a place noone has seen meth before (just regular amphetamines),
so nooen can verify smell, effect of apperance.
5. Does meth.hcl look/smell/taste the same as e.hcl or it there a distinct difference?
Finnally about the eventual oilbath. He tested to make one but he had a lot of "bumping", or bubbles comming up from the
oil, sometimes a little violent. Swim even used many boiling chips. (from a broken cuffecup) Swim placed it in a coffejar on a hotplate.
6. Does he have to use a special oil or does he have to use a different setup?
Swim realizes that perhaps questions are redundant or downright silly, but he has tried to use TFSE, but with no handson experince with meth, its difficult to verify the endproduct.
He thanks you for your time, and hoping for some advice...
Thanks again!
-jAmmin
(Hive Addict)
03-11-04 06:24
No 494397
Bottom line is too little water combined with the inability to adequately observe the reaction.
4 drops was for a 1 gram reaction. You didn't say how much psuedo or e you used so I don't know that figure but 3 grams of I2 and 2 of RP would easily fly fine with 2.5g of precursor. This amount might need about 10 drops at the start.
It's very important to be able to see the reaction taking place. To improve on he curbshot setup get a small pyrex measuring cup and some silica sand and sink the round bottom 2/3ds of the way into the sand so that you can still easily see into it. Then put that on a hot plate.
Read through Worlocks website that's now at rhodiums for some good descriptions of what to then look for in reaction behavior. Curbshot should mention these things too. If it doesn't get wet all the way through or turn into a dark purple oozy bubbling mass of viscous liquid then the reaction never really has kicked in. Once you can identify that there's no mistaking if it's going or not. And you can't know that if you can't see it.
Flat bottomed round flasks or erlenmeyers on hotplates work fine too with no oilbath hassles so consider that as an option that provides max visibilty and requires no difficult stabilization setups, (stands, clamps etc.). 24/40 jointed glassware is ideal.
Candy thermometers are sold for cheap in Standard US grocery stores and they generally float in solution. Not so useful for this rxn in my book but still not a bad thing to have around as a general purpose utility tool.
Curbsot and Worlock give you the correct visual signs to watch so that there is no need to either to take the temp or ph readings. Those things work and they train your observational sensitivity to the process quite well. Reread their stuff again to a tee. It's all there in their writeups . everythng you really need to succeed.
And you really do need to be able to observe the reaction.
erections lasting longer than four hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention
(Newbee)
03-11-04 06:33
No 494399
Thanks!
But swim only used 1.5 g of e.hcl and it still ran dry...
Swim will of course re-read the writeups once more.
And he has a 500 ml erlenmayer flask that fits the condenser.
He will try that one tonight..
Still he had some more unanswered questions above, he'd appreciate if some not too busy-bee could help out with those!
thanks again!
-jAmmin
(Stranger)
03-11-04 07:20
No 494406
Unless you're going to be doing a 3/4 ounce burn/batch don't break-out that 500ml!! Here's some suggestions I would like to submit based on what you've shared with us here.
1)For a Rxn this small forget the condensor altogether.
2)If your RP and I2 are for-real labgrade, then your ratios need adjusting. Instead of using 1.5/2/3(E/RP/I) use this ratio 1.5/1.25/1.75(E/RP/I). You can use too much RP and I think this may have been part of the problem here. With labgrade your RP ratio should never go over the weight of the E to be reduced.
3)Go to your chemist/drug store/pharmacia and buy a Baby Syringe. They usuallly come in 10ml size. You need to be able to correctly measure your amount of water. Like for your 1.5E reduction here I would add 1ml. But I like mine shorter than the longwet redux crowd. But the point is you can't correctly measure how much volume of water four drops is for your nano.
4)If your Post Rxn soluion went milky when it was basified this could be a result of not properly filtering the solution to where it was absolutely clear. Clear as in it isn't cloudy not necessarily clear in color now. Just not cloudy/murky in appearance.
5)A Crockpot if they sell them where you reside is a perfect heating mantle as it keeps a maintained temperature and if set on low it'll be hovering right around 95-100C. I tend to discourage temperature fluctuations for ones reduction. But I'm not sure if they do sell Crockpots where you are but if so, I recommend buying one.
6)Throw in your I2 first and have your RP & E mixed-up together prior to throwing them in.
nanos can be finnickey and this is just some food for thought for ya as since your doing nanos and using labgrades the prerequisites are a tad-bit altered.
Also, if you want a kick-ass short & spiffy road to reduction I can post one up here for you that is in my book far better than curbshot's. I'd be more than happy to throw-down with it if you want.
After All Is Said And Done........More Is Said Than Done.
(Newbee)
03-11-04 07:31
No 494407
1)For a Rxn this small forget the condensor altogether.
Ok, should he just tape the balloon directly to the 50ml rb flask?
2)If your RP and I2 are for-real labgrade, then your ratios need adjusting. Instead of using 1.5/2/3(E/RP/I) use this ratio 1.5/1.25/1.75(E/RP/I).
>ok. Ratios will be adjusted (they are bought from varios chemstores so the are labgrade...)
>You can use too much RP and I think this may have been >part of the problem here. With labgrade your RP ratio >should never go over the weight of the E to be reduced.
ok.
But i still dont understand if the gas should be yellow or transparent, can you elaborate?
>3)Go to your chemist/drug store/pharmacia and buy a Baby >Syringe. They usuallly come in 10ml size. You need to be >able to correctly measure your amount of water. Like for >your 1.5E reduction here I would add 1ml.
i have a dropper that can measure small amouts like this.
I'll heed your advice adn use exactly 1 ml.
>But I like mine shorter than the longwet redux crowd. But >the point is you can't correctly measure how much volume >of water four drops is for your nano.
Point taken.
>4)If your Post Rxn soluion went milky when it was basified >this could be a result of not properly filtering the >solution to where it was absolutely clear. Clear as in it >isn't cloudy not necessarily clear in color now. Just not >cloudy/murky in appearance.
ok.
>5)A Crockpot if they sell them where you reside is a >perfect heating mantle as it keeps a maintained >temperature and if set on low it'll be hovering right >around 95-100C. I tend to discourage temperature >fluctuations for ones reduction. But I'm not sure if they >do sell Crockpots where you are but if so, I recommend >buying one.
I've checked som places, and i think i've found one.
I'll buy it tomorrow.
>6)Throw in your I2 first and have your RP & E mixed-up >together prior to throwing them in.
This will be done.
>nanos can be finnickey and this is just some food for >thought for ya as since your doing nanos and using >labgrades the prerequisites are a tad-bit altered.
I have very little e.hcl at disposal, thats why im doing nanos to begin with.
Later i can buy more e.hcl, but it is damn expensive as it is illigal where i live.
>Also, if you want a kick-ass short & spiffy road to >reduction I can post one up here for you that is in my >book far better than curbshot's. I'd be more than happy to >throw-down with it if you want.
ohhh, man!
That would be just unbeilivable great!
-jAmmin
(Of Counsel)
03-11-04 08:21
No 494412
If you have a 50 ml flask and a condenser, why bother with curbshot's nano synth?
Please do this reaction wet and let it react for 24-36 hours at your temp. Check your seals, leave the baloon on, bring it up to temp over an hour and so, then let it reflux for a day or so.
Use E:I:rP:H20 1:1.2:0.5:0.8 if the red phos is first use lab grade. If its been used, use 0.75 on the rP. Add the E, rP, and H20, swirl, then add I2 in portions, swirling. Add them however you want. Just add them before adding heat. Cap the setup with a balloon and bring the heat up slowly with the condenser running. I recommend a temp just below 100C. If you do a wet, slow, non-smoky start, you can cook at 120C if you insist.
This isn't hard if you do it with water.
mostly harmless
(Newbee)
03-11-04 08:29
No 494413
that he dosenr start with a LWR is the amount of e.hcl available at this time.
In a recent conversation with swim, you suggested that a minimum of e.hcl that should be used is 5 grams preferably 10 grams. All ephdrine is illegal where swim lives, and thus hard to obtain.
So swim just want to get a little product, see if its worth making, and then buy more e.hcl from a source that requires big buys...
Then he'll start LWR'ing for sure.
Belive you me swim is convinced that this by far is the best method.
But the bottom line is, cant afford to waste/fuckup 10g batches...
-jAmmin
(Stranger)
03-11-04 08:39
No 494416
Now you Dreamers of the "hurry-up & wait-reflux" club must remember that short & spiffy is not so hard so as to discourage new dreamers away from the methodology!!
But regardless, I'm happy to see you Brother Geez and I pick no argument here with you(or anyone else!). Was good to see you around and until next time stay out of trouble young man!!
After All Is Said And Done........More Is Said Than Done.
(Of Counsel)
03-11-04 09:10
No 494421
I've found reactions under ten grams to be very sensitive to ratio errors, temperature variances, and contaminants. I recommend to anyone who wants to make meth to try their hand at with batches 10 grams and larger. Ounce size (28 gm reactions) are even more tolerant of contaminants and discrepancies in ratios.
I can't see the sense in doing a 36 hour cook you can't at least get an eight ball from, but that is my take on it. I never could see the sense in trying to make dope by the curbshot method when so many variables can doom the process to complete failure.
I've done refluxes as small as a gram and a half before; I do not recommend them, but there are times when you might want to do a small one to test one of your precursors strength or cleanliness, or if you just have to run a reaction to get it out of your system.
Curbshot's nano had its day, and a lot of folks succeeded with it after a few tries. A lot of folks gave up because of it. I do not suggest that a small reflux will not work, and have in fact done a number that produce three and a half grams of good meth...from five grams of pseudo HCl at the start. It can be done, is more typically sucessful and easier to do than curb's nano, but is not as ghetto or OTC as curbs method.
Someone I know very well took the ball and was going to write up the Eight Ball Express as a ghetto, OTC way to make meth. I suspect that bee got involved in some other things that were as interesting, if not more interesting, than the eight ball reflux cook.
Maybe I should suggest to that bee that they get busy with the eight ball express again. I wonder if that bee might say I am to blame for the lack of a writeup on it? Hmmmmmm?
mostly harmless
03-11-04 12:09
(Rated as: insignificant)
(Stranger)
03-11-04 15:46
No 494499
bring it up to temp over an hour and so, then let it reflux for a day or so
Geez - What should the temp be during the hour that you bring it up to temp? What should it be during the day or so reflux? SWIM had assumed it should be 100-120C the entire time.
(Hive Addict)
03-11-04 17:16
No 494515
Ibee started with 95°C and stuck with that temp for the longest time until he strated reading some info on HI and the like here...
He was persuaded to UP the temp even though his 95°C runs always completely reduced in the alotted time slot!
He is going back to the 95°C as he is now seeing a correlation between the possible creation of extra impurities and what he's read today!
It makes perfect sense that old saying....
If it ain't broke....don't fix it!
The best ways to maintain steady temps over long time periods is by using oilbath.
Time= 36-48hrs
Ibee now suggests temps @ 95-100°C (again
)
a little less conversation, a little more reaction
(Hive Addict)
03-11-04 17:30
No 494521
(Rated as: good read)
For the most part it's true that curbshots nono (plus most older style short & hot reactions including short push/pulls) are an obsolete means of obtaining any useful product in the US and most likely OZ too ( from e/i/rp recipes which specifially use ephedrine extracted from pills as their precursor) due to radical amounts and varieties of deviously designed pill adulterants.
And one of the major tools still able to somewhat surmount that fact is quite indeed the trusty but lengthy LWR.
Bees dwelling in other parts of the globe or a _very_ few privlaged US or Auzzie bees may still have the miraculous luxury of having a access to stocks of relatively unadultrated forms of ephedrine and _for_those_few_! I'd say that curbs nano is still one of the most relevant recipes you could start out with. (but to then move on to something else from) As it, if follewed dilligently (a big 'if') quite clearly gives you a decent, first hand grasp of and feeling for the whole process. Again...if followed diligently.
What it does neglect that it should not is the washing of the post rxn solution 3x with a non polar (ideally xylene) solvent.
If you are in the group I mention above and you wish to have a go at it follow it to the letter (exactly as written) if possible and the only substitutions you should make to it would be as follows.
Feel free to
1) substitute lab grade reactancts with ghetto grade
2) substitute real lab glassware of appropriate size with ghetto glassware (in his own case swim subbed a double necked 24/40 reaction tube for the cheapo glass cigar tube curb suggests)
3) substitute curb's candle heating method with a real lab hotplate and silica sand filled pyrex measuring cup. A visual facsimile of this can be seen at the very bottom of this post. Post 377287 (ChemoSabe: "Das Ist Der Kerplunker", Stimulants)
4) acquire a decent separatory funnel to do your fluid washes, rinses, separations and titration (salting out) with.
And also you should be liberally using Worlocks pages now avaiable at Rhodium's site as an adjunct reference to working in this manner. Or as a still relevant reference and historical backdrop to now almost antiquated methods that most here commonly and quite recemtly used prior to the necessity of the LWR. There's almost always something of value to mine from almost anything Worlock ever contributed.
US or OZ beez considering curbs nano who only have access to standard OTC decongestant and bronchodilator remedies, please do not give yourself any expectaions at all of ending up with any usable results if you read this and then stupidly still choose to continue on with a curbstyle nano. Again that statement mostly applies to US and OZ bees. mostly!
Heed Geezes (and warami's) wisdom on what he (or they) persistently reminds us of in his words concerning the LWR's. It ain't no BS by a long shot.
PS. I simply must credit warami for being the first of the persistent and un-shut-up-able voices suggesting the effective benefits of the now #1 e/i/rp rxn method, the LWR with additional kudos to Rhodium and Stoni for their earlier quite clear attempts to express this fact. Lucky for all of us that warami was so obsessive/compulsive about it and just wouldn't shut up!!!!
PS2 - I just proofread and saw a typo that I now chose not to correct and realized that anonther appropriate title for this post could have been "Nano or NoNo?"
erections lasting longer than four hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention
(Hive Bee)
03-11-04 20:02
No 494552
Great post Chemosabe, I think you touched on one of the major error cooks make in the shorter dryer cooks, uncleanly precursors!
Swim was always taught if you think it is clean enogh it probably isn't it. Swim doesn't nessecarily use this mentality but always goes the extra mile to ensure purity of each precursor!
Like Chemo said this along with excellent lab skill and or following the recipe to the T, will result in great dope.
Here is a great link to the post rxn procedure as well, Post 428962 (Osmium: "RP/I2 post-reaction workup: The short version", Stimulants), Geez's is more in depth, it should be easy to find in TFSE.
absorb what is useful, reject what is useless
(Newbee)
03-12-04 15:32
No 494723
good read in fact. I followed exatcly that road after TWO "almost identical" curbs...
I merged both. printed and had them close when cooking. although i might be a "Bee dwelling in other parts of the globe" after a few HI/RP short cooks I think Im ready to try a LWR. Most will be still guettoware but hopefully a 100 ml RBF, LG Iodine, Hotplate and a -10+200ºC thermometer will be added. things will go onand improvement will take place. I agree with the outside US bees trying the curbs. I first find the Rhodium site and after i found "the hive" forum so when i found the "curbs nano scale" i went happy. I HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEIA of whats involved...how things work...Back that days anyone trying to say to me "DO LONG WET REFLUXES" was wasting its time...."What the hell is a Reflux?...why wet??why not dry??whats the diference anyway???water??hmmm why water??Nonpolar...yaya...now i still miss a lot but at least ive learned some shit...and didnt try the LWR till this moment writting this...still i dont miss anymore arguments to prove its worth coz i believe it will work.
still i need to ask one or two dumb questions...
Is time/water/heat/(E+I+RP) proportional ratio???I tend to believe its not..coz if it was why doing 24H or even 48h???
we just calculate introduce enviroment losses and other detrimental factors and find the one and only way to do a perfect reduction.
we can even introduce the "labware to guettoware" factor so we can start to calculate final yield...
Path:
1.read a lot(all subjects regarding mind altering compounds not only about manufacture.optional: try a few
)2.try MB RP extration. [acetone>(40%water+60%H2SO4)...20 minutes...and water>acetone] cleanings are a must.
3.try iodine extraction. If lucky to find above 30 ml bottle even 500ml/1L of 1% will do but if using small bottle (-30ml) at least 5 bottles of 1% top get close to 3g of iodine will be needed so Forget it and go straight to the 5%+ type.
4.try the Pfed extraction. I started doing to much shit when it was supposed to do much lesser...most hive reading is about "TOO GAKKED PILLS" where here i concluded that:
-no need to grind pills.use microwave and boil in tolueno/xylene taking some pauses in between to stir. boil till pills are dust and little yellow tint is noted. decant add more of that and boil again till yellow. dont let it go dark yellow!
-acetone to clean it.KEEP IT!
-alcool. let it rest.
-decant to a dish
-boil in microwave till very hot and kinda viscous aspect.
-let all cristalize and some minoscolous points that are REALLY DRY OPAQUE WHITE are starting to appear.
-add acetone and scrape using blade.
-decant acetone.add it to the other u kept.keep to reuse.infact u shoul be keeping all...u will understand why later on your way...
5.read read and read.think about the reaction.
6. TRY IT! (curbs)
7. FEEL IT!
8. take conclusions and start thinking about improvements.
9. read. search and dont waste money easyly when u can wait and have anotehr piece or LG chem instead.
10. Apply BRAIN use to all the 9 above.
I take no credits on this. Its all at the rhodium site and here and that make me happy.
peace.
ps: Sorry about VERY long post but i was missing the typing...
(Hive Bee)
03-12-04 22:38
No 494798
I agree...
I rarely post in this forum, for reasons; however, I was "inspired" to add some bits for the nano enthusiast. Althought not my first success, I flew solo for so long with 10g and under reactions the NANO became my forte'.
I agree that Curbs nano if followed to the "letter" is probably extinct. Modifications are already in place (or being suggested), ie. dh2o rather than h2o2, hotplate rather than candle, proper A/B extraction for completion. To "the letter" IS feasible regarding the visuals in a shorter cook, detailed in Curbshots original write-up. And as Chemo said, "mine" all you can from Worlock, you won't regret that.
One item not really addressed is the temp if doing "less than a reflux" cook. I would suggest bringing the temp up then down (for cooling), over at least 2 hours....If one followed curb's "hour long" shot with a candle as a heat source, the fluctuations would be taking place about every 15 minutes. This can be controlled with most alternate heat sources, except a crock pot(good for LWR). I never exceeded 130C, usually maxed at 125c, dependent on cook time. The longer the cook, the lower the maximum temp, never lower than 120c for app. 6 hour nano..NOT LWR; 95-100c per Geez and Ware for reflux temp...
I finally succumed to the call of the LWR after months of discussion here and there. I was convinced that the extra time was worth the wait, in many ways. I agree with Geez, tho, there are times a curbshot style nano is very beneficial...with the additives hitting us today it is a way to "test" your precursors. (That is, if one choses not to expand his (or her) mind with textbook chemistry, a personal fav of mine.)
I do agree with Geez tho, I think a write up on a "ghetto" nano LWR is in order...A true way to "good as it gets" meth - nano style. Sounds like a good addition to any nano OR LWR thread. I beelieve a certain bee needs to get on the ball and ride that Eight Ball Express.
In that light may I suggest to that "guilty or not" bee, a little bit of red phosphorous goes a long way!
the girl your parents warned you abou