03-24-04 16:53
No 497119
That tooth decay thread got me thinking of this when people were mentioning tooth-grind.
I have always heard (esp. from certain bee's here endorsing the lwr) people claim that teeth-grinding and a few other associated side-affects were caused by impurities from a semi-botched rxn (mainly rp/i2, too high temps etc.). I have also heard many people boast about their product being so clean they experienced no jaw clenching or what not.
Now SWIM has always thought that was bullshit, and wants to know the truth (and everybodies thoughts on the subject). I mean, SWIM has procured product (from lwr) that was cleaned with every method possible, aside from maybe chromotography and vac. frac. of the freebase oil, and still gets teeth grind! Not right away, but it still happens (although I can't remember the last time I had a "speed-bump" on the ol' tongue). Also my tongue gets a mind of it's own, sometimes my speech is slurred if I've been up a while (I mean not from the sleep deprivation) and I'm really "UP", becuase my tongue is just moving around aimlessly.
Now I know it's not the impurities present either, because I get the same thing from USP quality pharmies (adderall).
Is it just me? Do other people get those incessant aimless tongue movements and grinding? Which neurotransmitter is responsible for that uncontrollable muscle movement (is it acetylcholine?, if I can rememeber?)? Just curious, and kinda bored.
(Hive Addict)
03-24-04 17:14
No 497125
of its own. My wife likes it but it drives me up a wall. I find myself make weird ass faces and start wondering if i had been doing that while at the store and realize why people were giving me wierd looks.
My problems occur when i let a hypo cook get a little too hot for a little too long. Usually if it starts to bump then the side effect is going to be there no matter how many times i recrystalize. It doesn't happen too often anymore but it still does every once in a while.
It wasn't Me!
(Hive Bee)
03-24-04 17:47
No 497137
My wife likes it but it drives me up a wall
Heh, I hear that
You remind me of a friend of mine that has very mild turettes (sp?) syndrome. You'll just be talking to him and esp. with the speed his face gets all weird and twitchy. It's hilarious.
03-24-04 20:30
(Rated as: incomprehensible)
(Hive Bee)
03-25-04 00:30
No 497215
well ganzas experiment "teeth grind" everytime he eats a speedy drug. MDMA is the worse for him. With meth teeth grinding gets more powerfull when in the comin down...next day or so...he also gets air bubbles under tongue much more than with anyother drugs...i dont know if this what u are talking about but its sure speech gets a little "weird" when this happens.
I bet even the most pure shit will give Ganzas that feeling...
(Hive Bee)
03-25-04 02:58
No 497237
Charlie.....what the hell are you talking about?
(Hive Bee)
03-25-04 04:56
No 497255
he is on a level far above/below us. swim finds than mdma is more irritating when it comes to tooth grinding and i hear you about the tongue thing! i have the same problem. he best cure is chewing gum.
wanted: witty signature...pm with details
(Stranger)
03-25-04 06:27
No 497265
No you are not the only one that grinds his teeth or some habit like putting your hair back behind your ears when it gets in your face. I have been told since the 60's,it has been going on.Don't do it but even with the pharmasutical USP,or the P2P gogo it still has those qualities.Seemed the more potent it was,the side effects were stronger.
Wanted:live in maid for cleaning,cooking+jaw massage
(goat)
03-25-04 08:58
No 497286
i think i was trying to point out that amongst a certain cross section of people, teeth-grinding and tight-jaw (tmj) is nearly epidemic, and not necessarily meth-dependant.
the bible thing was about some line predicting the gnashing of teeth at the end times. i tossed that in to show a link with the history of angst among people.
also, an attempt was made to detour the inevitable 'blame the azarides' game.
finally, the goat tried to compare the pharmaceutical adderal and ritalin to good and bad meth. to put some perspctive in the side affects conversation; he has found those stims to have the most wicked toungue-waggling side affects...clearly not from hot rxns and such.
i should try to bee more clear. sorry, bees.
(Of Counsel)
03-25-04 09:43
No 497300
Jaw clench, IMHO, is one sign that you didn't let the reaction run long enough. Tooth grinding and jaw clench are the same problem described in different terms. Originally I blamed high reaction temps for jaw clench, and high temps may help create byproducts that cause jaw clench. I later encountered the problem in some reactions that had not been done at what I consider a higher temp, and realized that jaw clench was generally associated with incomplete reactions-- reactions where a good portion of the pseudo or E was reduced to meth, but which had a good percentage of unreduced intermediates. This is dope that would have been much better if refluxed at least twelve more hours.
It wasn't until I converted to the LWR than the connection between jaw clench and incomplete reactions became apparent. Even with temps higher than I planned or wanted, I have never experienced jaw clench with dope from a completed long wet reflux that was started without a show of smoke and fast HI production. Conversely, I ALWAYS experience jaw clench if I do meth made with a short/hot/fast cook method popular in my area. It is a distinctive signature of dope made by the method. The dope will keep you awake, even if you have to do more of it than you want, but it invariably gives you jaw clench. Jaw clench in my experience isn't related to the strength of the dope on a dosage unit basis, as some "strong" dope gives you jaw clench, and some "weak" dope will do the same. My impression is that jaw clench is a side effect caused by an intermediate which will reduce to meth if the reaction completes.
You can get to a clenched jaw state by overdosing on an amphetamine; and you can get there from excessive nervousness and stress exacerbated by sleep deprivation. The jaw clench I refer to is the product of the dope, and sets in with fifteen minutes of ingestion; it continues until the drug is no longer effective. It isn't the meth that does it; if it were, my LWR dope would cause it, and it doesnt. If it were, desoxyn would cause it and it doesn't. It is found commonly in less-than-completely-reduced meth and this suggests to me that it is caused by an unreduced intermediate.
The tourette's syndrome type of uncontrolled tounge and mouth movements is also something I have seen and experienced many times. It is far more common among "cranksters" than with users of cleaner, better quality meth. I have experienced it with batches that were good, strong batches. I have not noticed it with LWR dope. It does not appear as commonly as jaw clench; it does occur by the batch; some cooks have dope that produces the symptoms frequently, but I am not familiar with any cook whose dope always produces the symptoms. The symptoms appear dose related and related to how long the person has been under the influence of that batch of dope.
The symptoms, at least in my experience, are frequently observed with overuse of the meth, and use of meth in very high doses, but does not seem to be dependent on the concurrent existence of a state of sleep deprivation. The symptoms appear at high doses or high levels use over a period of time, and are frequently noticed with people who are "tweaking," although "tweaking" may occur without these symptoms. The pattern of occurrence of the symptoms, my experience with them, and my observation of the experience of family members who obtained their meth from a cook whose meth was notorious for this effect suggest it is caused by a byproduct. It seems to be a toxic effect operating on the nerves that control the mouth and tongue. The problem can persist after prolonged use of products that produce it. I have known a couple of people who have been diagnosed with tourette's syndrom who now have these involuntary mouth and tongue movements independent of drug ingestion. The use of methamphetamine by both these individuals reproduces the symptoms almost immediately. In my opinion, the symptoms are probably the result of a neurotoxin by product whose effect is enhanced by the ingestion of methamphetamine. I have suspected that heat may play a part in the formation of the byproduct, but that is basically a guess on my part.
mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
03-25-04 20:54
No 497436
Although she doesn't make wierd faces like i seem to do. I can see it but most wouldn't notice when she does it. This side effect occurs when i get a hypo cook to hot for too long and that is the only time it happens. I could make it this way everytime if i wanted to but i don't. I have thrown out several grams with this side effect and rarely have rxns that produce it unless. The last was due to the hotplate not cutting off due to bad thermostat. I should also point out that i smoke meth while my wife takes it anally which rules out the method of consumption as the cause.
It wasn't Me!
(Hive Bee)
03-25-04 22:15
No 497447
Thanks geez for clearing some of that up.
The grinding/tongue movements SWIM was refering to only occur to SWIM about a day or two later, usually after continued use, and it happens mainly when SWIM begins to come down (which pretty much confirms what geez and a few others mentioned). Sometimes SWIM will be sitting there writing or something, and won't experience those aforementioned side affects that much if at all. When SWIM gets up and starts to do something physical (like cleaning or something) then it becomes worse.
Like I have said before, maybe it is impurities but I don't think so. The grinding/tongue movements SWIM talks about never occur when you first take the dope, only a long while afterwards. Also like SWIM said the same thing happens to him from adderalls.
Hmmm, maybe I'll do some more research on meth impurity data from rp/i2 rxns. The info at Rhodiums seems to be more ketone oriented than pseudo as precursor.
(Hive Bee)
03-25-04 23:05
No 497453
he is on a level far above/below us. swim finds than mdma is more irritating when it comes to tooth grinding and i hear you about the tongue thing! i have the same problem. he best cure is chewing gum.
In swix's neck of the woods teeth grinding and jaw clenching is the 'trademark' of someone under the influence (of meth, mdma etc). Meth seems to produce grinding whilst coming down AFTER one has chewed gum for days and their jaw is tired and locked. MDMA seems to produce chattery jaw on the WAY UP to peaking and a tight tensed out jaw whilst on the buzz (looking like the Joker from Batman). No grind the next day, just a sore jaw if one was chewing gum for ages the night before.
Also SHORTY the weird face thing is common; METH seeming to distort and TENSE certain parts of the face while MDMA seems to relax the whole face causing it to droop and u look like Pluto the Disney dog.
It is known that different people respond differently to drugs. And the teeth/jaw debate is no different. One may have 'hot and dirty' gear and have no teeth grind, however on another night (on the same gear) u will be a tense little tweaker for no apparent reason. To simply say 'hot and fast' cooked gear gives tight jaw/teeth is cutting the arguement short. It may well be a MAJOR contributing factor. However, many other variables like the use of gum, atmosphere, environmental stress, health issues like sleep deprivation et etc can also bring on a session of the 'grindies'
(Of Counsel)
03-26-04 09:56
No 497538
the mention I made in the preceeding post about hot and fast cooks was to a specific method used in my locality. The cooks use pseudo from very clean pills, mix E:I:rP at about 1:1.5:1 and just enough water to make a thick paste This is then heated on a red hot coil burner until it doubles in size, at which time it is removed from the heat, cooled, and worked up. cooking time is anywhere from fifteen to thirty five minutes. The resulting product gives a translucent white product that comes in large chunks or rocks, smokes well, rerocks fairly quickly, and burns fairly clean. It takes a guarter gram to get a decent meth buzz, and you have tight jaws fifteen minutes after you smoke any. It is a terrible waste of good precursors.
The reference I made was to this particular method, and not to the dryer, push-pull type cooks, and I probably did not make the point clearly enough in my preceding post. Not all push-pull or dryer reactions will produce meth with jaw clench. The particular method I referenced always did, to the best of my knowledge. Jaw clench remains a distinctive signature trait of meth made by the method. Some people claim to like the meth made this way; none of them prefer it to reflux dope.
mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
03-26-04 15:44
No 497579
I too would like to clarify that my experiences and aforementioned side effects are definetly caused by overheating a hypo rxn. Its a controllable outcome. In other words if i wanted to make it this way everytime then i easily could. However, it took me some time to realize the cause and i am 100% sure that overheating was/is the cause. Of course this has only been found to bee true on 2 people because only 2 people have ever used my meth so it may not apply to someone else.
It wasn't Me!
(goat)
03-26-04 20:46
No 497643
the almost involuntary toungue movements mentioned above, for me, were very pronounced on ritalin and on adderal, which i've only had very few times, and a single pill. i thought this was relevant to the dialog beecause it seems so unlikely that the pharmaceutical stims were cooked poorly and such.
you guys ever try these 2 stims? if so, anybee find them to bee a larger culprit than even non-pretty meth? and at lower doses?
(Stranger)
03-26-04 23:07
No 497656
Jaw clench, IMHO, is one sign that you didn't let the reaction run long enough. Tooth grinding and jaw clench are the same problem described in different terms. Originally I blamed high reaction temps for jaw clench, and high temps may help create byproducts that cause jaw clench. I later encountered the problem in some reactions that had not been done at what I consider a higher temp, and realized that jaw clench was generally associated with incomplete reactions-- reactions where a good portion of the pseudo or E was reduced to meth, but which had a good percentage of unreduced intermediates. This is dope that would have been much better if refluxed at least twelve more hours.
I jaw clench on Desoxyn
After All Is Said And Done........More Is Said Than Done.
(Hive Bee)
03-27-04 04:17
No 497677
I've never taken desoxyn, but I have take all kinds of types and mg of adderral and ritalin. Ritalin doesn't really do much else for me but elevate my mood a little bit. Like a very smoothe caffeine (I'm not complaining, I'm an avid coffee drinker, natures legal speed!), and gives me no teeth grind or anything.
(Hive Bee)
03-27-04 06:53
No 497688
maybe only me but teeth grind is related to "speed" drugs...and right now im not "speeding" nor im affected in any way by any drug and i found myself "grinding" sometimes...i bet even with 99,99% pure stuff i will grind...lsd i cant remember the grinding maybe because no time to think about it...thc well maybe i grind i little but its unnoticed....meth well i do think and notice the grinding effect...
i really dont believe that this grinding is related to hot reactions and shit like that...its a side effect of this drugs...what do u want??? a perfect/no side effect drug???
nosense as there isnt such thing.
(Hive Addict)
03-27-04 18:51
No 497789
As someone pointed out above, everyone reacts differently to drugs and opinions will vary. However, i do want my meth to not have certain side effects and as far as i am concerned, when i do it right, my meth doesn't produce side effects which are undesirable to me. Whether or not it is perfect is a matter of opinion since some expect certain side effects to be there in order to determine the quality. Im sure that every drug probably does cause some type of side effect but it depends on whether or not the user notices the side effect and whether or not it is a desireable one or not. As far as i am concerned if i can make meth that doesn't cause any noticeable, undesireable side effects then it is as good as it gets for me.
It wasn't Me!
(Hive Bee)
03-27-04 19:48
No 497800
my experience of lsd was at first, i didn't notice it, and then after a while i started to get sick of the feeling. not just teeth grinding, but a feeling of tension kinda like encagement around the back of my head seeming to be centred at the base of my skull.
not all acid does this. someone dropped two drops of some strange liquid that fluoresced under ultraviolet (purple of course) and i barely remember that night except i know that i wasn't up jumping around, i felt all melted and i think i might have had lots of strange visions, but dang it was the strongest i'd ever had, and i decided after taking that stuff that acid wasn't so nice unless you took a lot of it. but after reading more, it's related to the purity of the product.
also, one needs to clarify the terms. what does one define as 'jaw clenching' and how intense does it have to be to get that name, or does it just make you move your mouth more? is it light tension or does it hurt. piperazine stims i've taken gave me jaw clenching on the comedown too.
My opinion is that two things cause jaw clenching - excessive dose and iodoephedrine. I think the other poisons that can be present are related to the all over body pain thing on comedown that one gets with shitty yellow crank. (which i have decided is a somewhat psychedelic effect as i found a way to change the pain into rushes of bliss washing over me with a jedi mind trick type thing)
(Of Counsel)
03-27-04 21:44
No 497815
TM, if you took your meds like the doctor told you to, and slept every now and then, you wouldn't have that problem. I know how you go through that script!
Jaw Clench is just that. You notice your jaw muscle is tight, your teeth pressing hard against each other, and your jaw muscles sore. You would relax it, but you can't. As soon as you don't think about it, there it is again.
The mouth movements are something different. The moving lips, lips and tongue, and/or inability to stop the movement characterize this as something else entirely.
Lsd always made me grind my teeth. MDMA does the same. Staying up a long time will do it, as will drinking tons of coffee. The jaw clench I am discussing is caused by underreduced dope. The kind the master is talking about is caused to doing too much too soon too long, I'll wager... and by the fact that his jaw gets tired from talking nonstop.
mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
03-27-04 22:02
No 497818
you clench your teeth the most when you sleep after a crash.
when your awake, you can consciously avoid clenching your teeth, you shouldent take that dose, again, do meth in moderation search for my post on it.
now when you do goto sleep, if your serious about avoiding the grinding, wear a mouth guard to bed, this isnt funny, you can imagine how much pressure your jaw is when you sleep normally,
well guess what when you sleep, after crashing on meth, you clench your jaw twice as much!!!!
licking a clit works for me, stoping my teeth clenching
FEAR MY GEAR
epistemologicide
signed -nous
http://www.counterorder.com
(Stranger)
03-28-04 06:27
No 497849
The mouth movements are something different. The moving lips, lips and tongue, and/or inability to stop the movement characterize this as something else entirely
There's a specific name for this that evades me (suprise) of the same jargon-y ilk as "Formication - the sensation that bugs are crawling beneath the skin". It is strongly associated with anti-psychotics, thorazine espec.
Times ago, I would juice benzadrex inhalers (blechh!) and the jaw clench was such that, examined inthe mirror, my tounge would have tooth marks down the sides, distinct as a well done brass rubbing. All other ill effects available were also present in very large supply: prostate, skin, bloodpressure, paranoia, shadow people (why are they following me to the store?), cause i have cats-shadow cats (why are they lurking at my elbow all the time?), statueing out-frozen in a position for llleeenngggttthhs of time between focus/movement.
Again, Blechh.
(Hive Martyr)
03-30-04 23:30
No 498235
it's called speed for a reason people. Tooth decay happens at a rapid rate just like your life cycle begins to accelerate rapidly.
Plus, your cook is sloppy as hell most likely and that brownish biker dope you love so much.....aint pure for shit!