03-25-04 00:46
No 497217
Hi people
HCL salt of meth is for sure the most used form. I was wondering if anybody outhere tried any other forms.
If so can u plz use this thread and post your experiences??
like the quntities used of the acid and properties of the salt?
Im very interested about this other forms. I really dont know much about chemistry as u all know. I dont ingest meth. I smoke meth so smoking forms are really apreciated...anyway info is never too much so if u are the bee im talking about plz help the hive and post ur knowlejge.
many thx for your time
(Hive Bee)
03-25-04 03:48
No 497246
Some stuff from Renegades FAQ
"Chemically speaking, amphetamines are generally either a freebase or a salt. The term ‘freebase’ is widely misused in regards to amphetamines; used correctly, freebase refers to the drug in its natural (pure) form. Since amphetamines are amines, and amines are bases, the pure form is called the freebase because it is the base free of any other functional groups. Freebases tend to be oily liquids at room temperature and pressure, and are often quite volatile (i.e., they evaporate easily). As a consequence, the freebase form is generally preferable for smoking; however, freebase oils are also more difficult to store and measuring accurate doses can be problematic. For this reason the freebase is almost always converted to a salt.
The salt form is more common on the street, and is made by performing an acid/base extraction of the freebase, where the type of salt produced depends on the acid used. With most drugs, hydrochloric acid (HCl) is used, which produces HCl salt. However in the case of amphetamines, the HCl salt is not particularly suitable because it absorbs moisture from the air quickly (i.e., amphetamine HCl is ‘hygroscopic’). For this reason the sulphate salt is preferable to the hydrochloride salt; as a consequence, most ‘street speed’ is amphetamine sulphate. In the case of methamphetamine, the HCl salt is far more common, because it forms better crystals and the sulphate is not suitable for smoking."
"You can’t smoke the sulphate salts, because the melting points are too high (around 300°C), it the powder substance will actually combust before it releases an appreciable amount vaporised amphetamine"
from http://theposse.kicks-ass.net/renegade/w
(Hive Bee)
03-25-04 22:23
No 497451
Different salts do have slightly different properties (properties being aspects of the high). I think it was Rhodium who posted the info about amphetamine phosphate and it's relation to other salts as far as these properties go. Also I've noticed that in adderalls, I remember reading somewhere where different salts or salt mixtures are widely used, like the aspartame or citrate salts. I wonder how different salts or salt mixtures would affect the buzz?
(acetaminophanatic)
03-26-04 00:11
No 497468
I was wondering the same thing, from a different angle recently...
My wonder was about the meth burn. Apparently burn on snorting is due to lower water solubility of the drug, allowing it to sit on your nasal surfaces burning for a while before it gets absorbed. In that case, one would actually want a hydroscopic salt, to get a smooth and kind snort.
The suggestion I saw was to use acetate or HBr salt, but I wonder if other bees have any experience with this. Perhaps some field-testing? How does salt type affect nasal burn?
The List:
HCl
HBr
Acetate
Citrate
Tartrate
Phosphate
Sulfate
Oxalate(?)
Salicylate
...anything else?
Oxalate seems questionable, as it's usually not very soluble salt. And we can probably let the hydroflouride, formate, etc. be...
Catching a buzz @ the Hive
(Hive Bee)
03-26-04 00:37
No 497474
you don't feel all different just cos you ate an apple (apart from the nutritive value)... it's got MALIC acid in it that must do something shorely
ahem
the thing about the other salts only would make any difference, maybe, if you were injecting, as the acid ions have some effects when they are introduced directly into blood (as an example, HCl concentrations cause elevation of body temperature, some salts can cause strange sensations when injected but this kind of condition is rapidly fixed in the blood via buffers and other mechanisms)
The burn you are talking about from snorting is very likely from over-acidified speed, or you aren't powdering it finely enough. Try making a solution of it sometime and get one of those blow spray things (one tube blowing across another at right angles) and get a friend to blow the solution up your nose, of course use the minimum of water, hell it doesn't matter if it's a little warm even. Or put into a nasal sprayer...
the other vaguely possible source of the burning might be from residual sodium chloride that can form if one does not wash the nonpolar extract of the freebase properly when extracting it. Salt does burn membranes. It is actually acidic as well, it's pKa is 6.5 (that's the pH a saturated solution of pure sodium chloride would read). The alkaloids, while they are alkaline, are much weaker bases, in fact weaker than sodium bicarbonate, i don't believe they are that irritating to membranes, certainly not compared with salt or occluded water in the crystals containing HCl.
(Hive Bee)
03-26-04 04:22
No 497504
The burn you are talking about from snorting is very likely from over-acidified speed, or you aren't powdering it finely enough.
SWIM agrees. After recrystallization of SWIMS product, powdering a line to the max and snorting produces a very mild burn lasting only 5-10 seconds if even. And by mild SWIM means hardly noticeable, no teary eye or anything of the like. SWIM hardly ever snorts it (eating or smoking usually), so SWIM knows his nostrils aren't just burnt out.
However SWIM does disagree with saying the acid doesn't make a difference. The type of acid used definitely affects the drugs absorbancy into system and also how it's metabolized. Cut through the synthesis info and read the following:
../rhodium
/ampheta
It talks about the phosphate salt and how it is different from others.
(Hive Bee)
03-26-04 14:26
No 497570
in that document the author only compares the sulphate with the phosphate. If phosphate is more absorbable via the stomach then surely HCl would be equally. the only difference would be you can mix up the phosphate into less water when injecting (big deal)
the sulphate is 'more persistent' perhaps because it releases more slowly in the stomach, delivering a higher dose over a longer period. so the differences only apply to oral ingestion. it has been confirmed that smoking the HCl and injecting any salt provides the highest bioactivity. Having tried rectal admin of bzp recently, i can definitely say that the dose being stronger and longer may not be a good thing, but it's all down to the rate of introduction of alkaloid into the bloodstream.
It won't matter with snorting, except perhaps the phosphate would more readily make a very small quantity of liquid which would work well as a spray. the phosphate would not be suitable for snorting a dry powder because it (as you know) is hygroscopic and thus won't form a dry powder.
(Stranger)
03-28-04 07:14
No 497855
I'm real interested in this too- i get the feeling noone has researched this enough.
The only diff 'tween adderall & good old fash DEX is the salt comb. And that acts as 'brakes' on the drug--yyou can only catch 'so much' buzz off Add'l, and then taking moreis awaste. I've taken what would have been deeply unwise, if it were G.O.F.DEX, amounts of Add'l without corresponding increase of effects.
What acid even makes sachrate or aspartate?
I'm thinking that diff salts effects are not predictable accross the board. But are specific to each various drug.
(Stoni's sexual toy)
03-28-04 15:25
No 497901
> I'm thinking that diff salts effects are not predictable accross the board.
Yes they are predictable. If it's sufficiently soluble the you can bet that the bioavailability will be high.
BUSH/CHENEY 2004! After all, it ain't my country!
(Stranger)
03-28-04 17:59
No 497916
Okay. I guess what led me to believe them unprdictable was variances in hygroscopic aspects of amph hcl and meth hcl.
That and i guess an unreliable source told me that the various salts of Adderall were used to control the amphs 'affinities' for different body/brain areas, to focus its effects as it were. Could easily be total BS.
But if one is urinating out large portions of meth intake, how bioavailable is hcl?
Why would one choose to mix sacchrate, apartate and sulfate as in Adderall? Does the salt change the effect of the drug in any way or only modulate the body's access to it?
thanks
Oh! and forgeting concerns like ease of handling/method of administration, what would be the most soluable/bioavailable form?
(Hive Bee)
03-29-04 02:35
No 497955
But if one is urinating out large portions of meth intake, how bioavailable is hcl?
whether your kidneys eject it or not has nothing to do with whether it's bioavailable. if it got into your blood it was obviously bioavalable.
(Hive Bee)
03-30-04 12:10
No 498133
hey osmium thx for convineient comment.
"If it's sufficiently soluble the you can bet that the bioavailability will be high."
u know my english trouble anyway let me ret to explain what ive understand from that.
if its soluble in what??water??
so if its soluble in whatever is soluble the its more readly avalable since we are talking about cells in the bloodstream right???
but anyway the soluble in whaever is soluble the more gets in short time of period so its not more potent but u feel faster and "more potent" coz u absorb more in shorter period of time right?
if this is correct then part of the thread is replied...for me...
trying to get all factors from all salts ...now im interested in whats worse for health and weight. ill do some researc anyway but if anyone wants to show then write it.
(Hive Bee)
03-30-04 12:58
No 498141
the latest ministry of health guidelines recently published for diagnosing and treating attention deficit disorder had a reference to a study which showed that adderall did not extend the duration of effect via the salt mixing.
you might get a longer effect if you try rectal administration
(Hive Bee)
03-30-04 16:49
No 498179
dont use it. never get in touch with it...my only concerns are whats the better acid to add (meth sint) to get the desired salt...taking in consideration all factors...consider for example adding citric acid to get citrate...whats good and bad about it...adding sulfuric for the sulphate...idem idem...what really drives me crazy is why some drugs dont appear as HCL but as others.thats one point too...
(Stranger)
04-05-04 10:48
No 499183
I too was pondering the effect of salts on absorption rate, bioavaiability and the like. I came accross what is probably a bogus article about sythesis of amphetamines and near the end it said this:
"All the salts of ecstasy (other then the hydrochloride) are hallucinogens/stimulants and are psychedelic in nature. The tartrate and citrate salts may be twice as potent as the original hydrochloride (ecstasy). "
Is this just because the difference in weight or density of the resulting product?
Why is lsd most often seen as the tartrate?
Last but not least, you guys have had meth that didn't burn your nose??? I need to hang out at your house more often. Every rail I've ever seen might as well have been habañero powder, with the funny coincidence that the more terribly it burned the more pure it seemed to be..?
(Stranger)
04-05-04 19:48
No 499183
I too was pondering the effect of salts on absorption rate, bioavaiability and the like. I came accross what is probably a bogus article about sythesis of amphetamines and near the end it said this:
"All the salts of ecstasy (other then the hydrochloride) are hallucinogens/stimulants and are psychedelic in nature. The tartrate and citrate salts may be twice as potent as the original hydrochloride (ecstasy). "
Is this just because the difference in weight or density of the resulting product?
Why is lsd most often seen as the tartrate?
Last but not least, you guys have had meth that didn't burn your nose??? I need to hang out at your house more often. Every rail I've ever seen might as well have been habañero powder, with the funny coincidence that the more terribly it burned the more pure it seemed to be..?
(Hive Bee)
09-26-04 16:38
No 533246
"All the salts of ecstasy (other then the hydrochloride) are hallucinogens/stimulants and are psychedelic in nature. The tartrate and citrate salts may be twice as potent as the original hydrochloride (ecstasy). "
So is that saying that the hcl form of MDMA IS NOT a hallucinogen/stimulant while all the other salts are?
Then how do they explain the millions of people peaking off MDMA HCL?
And since when did people start making salts of MDMA that wernt HCL?
Sounds pretty bogus to me.
Your an individual just like everyone else.
(Newbee)
09-26-04 23:50
No 533295
"All the salts of ecstasy (other then the hydrochloride) are hallucinogens/stimulants and are psychedelic in nature. The tartrate and citrate salts may be twice as potent as the original hydrochloride (ecstasy). "
Sorry, but this is complete bullshit. Hydrochloride MDMA is exactly as psychedelic/stimulant (huh?) as every other MDMA salt. And citrate and tartrate salts are nothing different (unless you mean optically pure tartrates, see below).
The different salts have different weight, though - hence you have to take slightly more of the sulfate, less of the hydrochloride (by weight) to achieve same effects.
Tartrates are salts of tartaric acid, which is used to separate optically active isomers. Because LSD exists in two stereoisomers of which only one is active, the separation via tartaric is part of the synthesis.
edit Oh - someone was faster with his critique...
"Every rail I've ever seen might as well have been habañero powder, with the funny coincidence that the more terribly it burned the more pure it seemed to be..?"
Another funny coincidence is that the purer the "habañero powder", the less is needed. Normally.
(Of course it burns more to snort 100mg of pure meth HCl, in contrast to snorting 100mg of yummy 1:9 meth/lactose mixture...
)