08-09-04 23:21
No 524480
yes, I picked iospropyl because it was on my kitchen cupboard shelf. It also smells a bit less than denatured alcohol. I did a quick calculation today, and if you add about 35 ml of that 300 g/l KOH solution to get about 10 grams of KOH, you'll also be adding around 20 ml of water...this was just quick off the top of the head without calculating density...etc...that would be a bit short of the 9% water used in the trial runs if 250 to 300 ml of isopropyl was used to pull those 100 pills. It's just much simpler to use pellets. I have no idea how much water in iso would be harmful, but once it forms layers on you, you know you have way too much water.
(Popular Author)
08-10-04 02:42
No 524505
I have no idea what the density of 300 g/l KOH solution is, but 1.5 is a good guess. If one has to add 35 ml of this solution to get 10 grams of KOH, then the 35 ml would weigh around 50 grams, and the remaining 40 grams would be water. That would be a bit much for 300 ml of anhydrous isopropyl, but maybe not so much that layers would form. Somebody I know has to fool around with KOH and alcohol solutions to see at what point layers form with added water.
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
08-16-04 11:01
No 525717
When using red dots if you remove the red die first most of the filtration problems leaves with the die. The die itself is hell on filters clogging them almost as soon as it comes into contact..
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Hive Bee)
08-16-04 15:42
No 525740
So if im correct this method wont work that good on pseudo sulfate?
Your an individual just like everyone else
(Stranger)
08-17-04 04:22
No 525834
I guess swim's a newbee,he useto be multy oz dreamer and was good at going natsi stile
,but many things have changed for him sence then. Now swi7 is tryn 2 do a nano and dien with all these preblems tryn to extract clean pseudo. so far swi7 is in the hole about 100$ in pseudo and solvents. But he'll keep reading and keep try'n and Im shure he'll get it.
just tryin 2 get back on track.
(Popular Author)
08-18-04 01:54
No 525971
Is pseudo sulfate difficult to get dissolved in alcohol? If so, a bit of HCl in the extraction alcohol might help....otherwise I can see no reason why pseudo sulfate pills wouldn't behave in a similar way...
(Stranger)
09-05-04 12:25
No 529668
meth-hcl is soluble 1:5 in chloroform, does pseudo have thet same property, if so what about the new gakks, just a thought
HEDONISM....THE RELENTLESS PERSUIT OF PLEASURE
(Popular Author)
09-07-04 01:56
No 530008
This one takes me back to wher I started on this subject a year ago in the Pill Fuckers at it Again thread.
Gas station ephedrine pills were ground up in a blender with no solvent pre-soak. They were then extracted with portions of 91% isopropyl alcohol. This pill formulation turned out to be a filter clogging type, so after soaking and swirling, it was allowed to settle and the soak was decanted. Then several more alcohol soaks were done over a period of several hours. This resulted in a milky looking solution that was allowed to settle overnight.
The almost clear alcohol extract was poured off the settled debris, and put into a beaker. It was put on the stove at med heat and set to boiling. As it got warm, roughly 12 grams KOH per 100 of the 25 mg ephedrine plus 200 mg guifenesin pills was added.
As it got boiling, the initially kind of clear solution turned a pale yellow, then a yellow oil layer formed at the bottom of the beaker. There was a fairly large amount of the oil compared to a similar number of sudafed pills. Boiling was continued for 25 minutes.
When the beaker had cooled down, the liquid was poured into a sep funnel. The oil layer was drained off, and the alcohol put back into a beaker. It was slowly evaporated down. The alcohol was of a kind of cloudy appearance.
When the alcohol was almost all gone, roughly 70 ml of water was added to the beaker for each 100 pills used. It was swirled around to dissolve the stuff at the bottom of the beaker, and poured into a sep funnel. Then about 50 ml of naptha (actual solvent used:hexane)was put into the beaker to clean up some more. This wash was put into the sep funnel as well.
The sep funnel was shaken, and after a bit of time to let the layers settle, the water was drained off. This was followed by another water wash, which too was drained away.
Finally, the naptha(hexane) layer was poured into a beaker, allowed to sit for a couple hours to shed water, then poured into another beaker and gassed with dry HCl. Yield roughly 70% of what seems to be nice ephedrine HCl. Perhaps it is time to start with recrystallization experiments.
(Hive Addict)
09-07-04 02:27
No 530013
UncleFester: I'm not sure of the relevency here or if this might help but IPA is used to make eudragit and while the KOH is proven to deal with that part, my thought is that if another alky was used as the extractant, the KOH part wouldn't bee overburdened as much.
If you get my drift.
I could be wrong about that but it's just a hunch.
Maybe Denat or methanol might improve yields and reduce that milkiness.
RXa-soar-ass
Vvvrrrooom!
(Popular Author)
09-08-04 02:12
No 530220
Those gas station pills were the ones which a year ago got me interested in these new pill formulations. They were the WORST ever seen. If the KOH method should fail on them, one wouldn't want to be wondering if it was because of a switch to different alcohol type.
I have no idea if 95%EtOH is as good or better than 91% iso. That would make an interesting line of experimentation.
(Hive Addict)
09-08-04 02:36
No 530225
Ibee is my name
Refinement is my game
If it can be made better...
We'll see to it!
The KOH method is a valid reliable method so there should be little doubt about which side blindsided which in a drunken stupor over tech-killa brands.
Thanx Uncle!
RXa-soar-ass
Vvvrrrooom!
(Stranger)
09-08-04 03:10
No 530234
swims BEEn waiting pationtly 2 c the the results from these efed pills as swim would like 2 bee dreamn with'm.
still have yet 2 secure KOH .
so bee's been play'n with EvlScrip's tetra/spd & cant help but wonder ? Evl if you got KOH why is tetra /spd ur wash of choise ? Just ask'N.
Dam ILOVE this site
(Popular Author)
09-09-04 22:49
No 530524
74, just to let you know, the residue after evaporating away the iso after the KOH boil amounts to almost one half ml per pill put into the mix. It is a jelly at room temp, but it mixes with warm water. Just a small detail I left out of the process writeup. Those 200 mg guifenesin pills are a cesspool of slop.
(Popular Author)
09-10-04 03:19
No 530569
They really go heavy with the detergents on this formulation, but following this procedure they will be down the drain where they belong. The other wierd stuff in this formula either gets cleaved, or doesn't show its stuff. It's kind of funny how easy they are when done right.
(Stranger)
09-10-04 06:18
No 530585
Anybee having trouble finding KOH just go to the search engine beaucoup.com and put in Potassium Hydroxide. It will pull up all you need.
Just to BEE safe though, it should be sent to a safehouse.
(Hive Bee)
09-11-04 10:31
No 530823
91% seem to have glycerin or something to that affect, it leaves a film of sorts on things, 99% seems to as well but not as noticeably. the red hot ISO bottles of gas line water remover from swibbs experience has some sort of metal, or or other heavy compound that has a bluish tint after evaping. anyone else notice anything of the sort?
swibb's recently been using a slightly more expensive 99.9% anyhdrous IPA from a fry shop for computers. swibb's noticed it has a far less noticeable smell as well. anyway.
(Hive Addict)
09-11-04 19:32
No 530876
Ethanol has superior qualities in comparison to the common alky's for bee's purposes as they relate to popular pass-times around here.
But that's according to the Lit from some pretty reliable authoritive documents.
Some try to sideline the facts with discussion of preferences, and to them I say "Whatever floats yer boat, SWIM!"
Whatever the preference, you can't change scientific fact or molecular affinity!
I've always had a strong affinity to things with strong affinities for the things I have an affinity to!
For those that have an affinity for IPA in extractions that are riddled with eudragit, I can only suggest a side by side trial experiment (double-blind for those with an affinity toward getting soused
)One with IPA, the other with ethanol(grain alky in most states).
And for those with unswayable preferences, Let your aquired taste decide for itself which one works best.
For me....The Proof is in my Pudding!
I recall seeing a post by the chief Rhodium stating that his locale presented aquistion difficulties for the purer ethanols. And Dwarfer stated marvin can't find grain alky on the left coast. Is that the case in most states due to ABC and ATF restrictions. I do recall a burst of Campus Related Hazing incidents resulting in alky related deaths some time back that would explain tighter restrictions but not an all out abolishment of EverClear(grain).
You Laugh at me because I'm different
I laugh at you because you look the same
(Popular Author)
09-15-04 03:34
No 531355
The Merck Index lists a series of formulations for the denatured ethyl alcohol found in the paint section of hardware stores. All the formulations start with 95% EtOH, and then to that various additives are mixed in to make it undrinkable. It is a lot smellier than 190 proof vodka or 91% iso-OH, but should be functional for the purpose.
(Hive Addict)
09-15-04 06:50
No 531389
Do the additives put into denatured ethanol have an effect on it's particular 'affinity' to do what bees need to with it?
And could the ethanol within bee purified by simple distillation?
(Question almost but not quite unrelated to this forum.) What would it take to get the denatured into a "drinkable" form?
he's either got a lightbulb up his ass or his colon has a brilliant idea
(Stranger)
09-15-04 07:48
No 531397
swim found KOH in drain cleaner, no other chemicals listed but has bleach smell. evapped down to pretty white crystals, will this work if dry and bleach smell is gone?
(Stranger)
09-15-04 08:03
No 531399
If denat could be purified by simple distillation then it wouldnt be a very effective denat would it. People would just distill it then drink.
The denats have practically the same BP as the ethanol making it impossible to purify this way, infact its almost impossible to purify denat alcohol anyway from what i know.
Your an individual just like everyone else.
(Popular Author)
09-18-04 01:21
No 531860
I wrongfully posted that the results from straight iso-OH followed by KOH boil of gas station 200 mg guifenesin/25 mg ephedrine was suitable for further use. It is suitable for shit. These pills need a pre-soak to clear the inactives. I will report back later on details.
(Popular Author)
09-18-04 03:07
No 531884
the superficial commentaries come in, consider that I have been extracting these ephedrine pills for about 15 years throughout their various transformations. I'm not a newbee. When the 100 mg. guifenesin pills came out, one could extract by first soaking in toluene. When the 200 mg. guifenesin pills came out, a toluene pre-soak, then base with NaOH in akly, then extract with naptha worked just fine. The last couple of years that one worked poorer and poorer as more shit went into the pills....ephedrine pills have always lead on formulations to market.
Now this failure on the KOH method. It may well be that the 200mg and associated shit just has to have a pre-soak. The alternative is that this is a new breed of pills. Time will tell.
(Hive Bee)
09-20-04 12:27
No 532308
About these methacrylic polymers,is there solubility not dependant on ph?
Like,dont they become insoluble at around ph5?
Why not extract with alcohol,filter,acidify alcohol pull @ph5,wait,filter and then carry on with what ever extraction steps you feel are still needed.
Sorry if this has been mentioned.
Some reading for you Ware
http://www.pharmcast.com/PatentToSubWeb/like you havent read it all already.
(Popular Author)
09-25-04 23:13
No 533163
Let's just ignore the difficulty in judging the pH of an alcohol solution, especially at a near neutral pH like 5, and suppose that one of the polymers in the pill mix, eudragit, has a solubility minimum at pH 5. There are still al the other polymer additives, and they are chosen so that they will make no end of problems. Things like polyethylene glycol(PEG), that yet inidentified filter plugging material, and on and on. All the new additives are polymers. By breaking them first, one has a much clearer field...one the people who thought up the additives hadn't covered. You may not end up with a pristine product just by alky extraction and KOH boil, but it at least gets you to a product that works. The product then can also be freed of residual crap by recrystallization. pH tweeking of the extracts has been tried, but other additves get through. It's best to clear the field, then work.
(Stranger)
09-26-04 00:36
No 533173
here's a miseable tale just to add to the colourfullness of this thread....tried a caustic alky reflux on about half a cup of ground pills and ended up with about three cups of black shit that had the ability to soak up endless amounts of toluene...a whole litre of tolly was exhausted...the tiny amount that could be poured off was evaped to reveal half a teaspoon of brown crud from a potential of five grams sudo....misery ensued and some ephedra was purchased....
(Stranger)
09-26-04 05:42
No 533208
Every KOH boil swim has performed has left him happy with at least 50% of initial gear. Getting a 10mg ready.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
09-26-04 23:38
No 533292
would caustic be NaOH? That is the usual terminology...
(Newbee)
09-27-04 01:44
No 533313
yes, naoh...i guess i was avoiding the whole koh vs naoh subject since it was recomended not to use naoh...i thought it wouldn't matter too much since it works wonders on an ephedra extract but something tells me your going to tell me different....i did reflux it for an hour....what do you reckon?
(Of Counsel)
09-27-04 06:05
No 533338
Yes, it matters. KOH and NaOH have important differences here-- KOH is more readily soluble in alcohol than NaOH. You want that water in the alcohol...you cannot succeed without it.
mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
09-27-04 06:16
No 533342
NaOH is also know as caustic soda and sodium carbonate is soda ash, not to sure what potassium hydroxide is referred to as but.
Your an individual just like everyone else.
(Stranger)
09-27-04 07:04
No 533348
(Waste of time)
Edit: Depending on where you live, you might be able to distill it or not... If you're in the EU: Post 511332 (methyl_ethyl: "EU Ethanol Denaturation", Stimulants)
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
09-27-04 15:17
No 533381
potassium hydroxide is referred to as pot ash I believe.
Metalgirl, What happened to the alcohol? did you separate it from the mess in the bottom of the beaker before evaping it? Brown stuff sounds burnt to me...
Separating the alcohol and evaping will yield at least 50% in a freebase form if KOH was employed. A DH2O wash of the freebase and titrating back to an HCl should be clean enough for use. You could add toluene and gas if you don't like titrating.. Swim says use the freebase anyway. It makes things simple.. Toluene can be added to the snot left in the beaker to pull for higher yield. process this separately..
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Stranger)
09-27-04 16:35
No 533387
315 24 x 30's boiled in 450mL 91% ISO IPA 15 grams KOH added at boiling point, boiled 30 minutes. Top layer decanted off of oily layer on bottom and evapped to near dry, flashed with tone (stupid part?) and filtered. Covered with 100 mL tolly washed twice with dh20, separated and gassed tolly, became cloudy and white material settled on bottom but material passed through filters. Entrained water assumed. Evapping tolly extracts and will cover with tolly again and allow to sit to drain entrained water and regas. Does this sound right?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Newbee)
09-27-04 19:58
No 533410
Damn I've had a bad few days...two posts rated as misinforming for reasons which are quite obvious and now this....I'm afraid I've really led us up the garden path, through the fields and over the mountains here....
I did this proccedure many months ago and whilst posting about it my recall of the event was shocking....In fact I had allready worked out what was most likely the problem...this is embarrasing...you see, the great god of slackness had guided me that day to not worry about ridding the pills of paracetamol just to see what would happen....well it all swelled up and went pitch black so I guess that's what happens...though, interestingly the proccedure was performed on an alky pull, not the raw pill mass which makes the amount of black shit I got quite remarkable....oh, and Jacked; it was refluxed in an oil bath at 100 C so it wasn't burnt by heating..
Also, though I have a strong inclination toward believing you guys about koh vs naoh (since I know squat) I can't help but wonder how important the difference is since the naoh/meoh has proven to be very effective on an ephedra extract.....no emulsions in work up..I guess this is very different to pills so the difference may be vital in pill hacking...
Uncle Fester, what's this about water?...I've been away from the hive for months and months...better read the whole thread....god! these must be the most useless posts I've ever made..
(Popular Author)
09-28-04 13:11
No 533543
This subject was covered in detail in the thread along with experimental, you'll find it with some looking. Also, the old term for KOH is caustic potash.
(Newbee)
09-29-04 00:04
No 533644
Just out of interest, i've just been reading about biodeisel....which is made by reacting vegetable oil with koh or naoh in methanol. The article i read says naoh+methanol= sodium methoxide. Here's a bit of the article.....(this may all be irrelivant so i don't mind if you down rate this)
"TRANSESTERIFICATION"
In transesterification, lye and methanol are mixed to create sodium methoxide (Na+ CH3O-). When mixed in with the WVO this strong polar-bonded chemical breaks the transfatty acid into glycerine and also ester chains (biodiesel), along with some soap if you're not careful (more on that later). The esters become methyl esters. They would be ethyl esters if reacted with booze (ethanol) instead of methanol.
oh yeah, here's a definition of caustic:
Capable of burning, corroding, dissolving, or eating away by chemical action.
Corrosive and bitingly trenchant; cutting. See Synonyms at sarcastic.
Causing a burning or stinging sensation, as from intense emotion: “Most of all, there is caustic shame for my own stupidity” (Scott Turow).
n.
A caustic material or substance.
A hydroxide of a light metal.
The enveloping surface formed by light rays reflecting or refracting from a curved surface, especially one with spherical aberration.
(Newbee)
10-04-04 03:12
No 534331
swit_c just finished another KOH boil, 3.60 grams available. 175ml 91% ISO IPA used to extract, then right at boiling 5 grams of KOH chips were added and boiled 30 minutes. At 20 minutes of boiling 1 more gram of KOH chips were added. This was then allowed to cool and the bottom layer which was just as swiuf described it except a little more yellow was separated off through a sep. funnel. ISOIPA was then evaporated to give a large amount of crystalline pseudo. To this 20ml dh2o added then, this was poured into sep. funnel then 75ml of toluene was added to evap. dish and used to get up all the xstals and moved to sep. funnel. Then 1/2 of total volume of tolly was added in dh2o 3 times. Now the tolly is sitting to drain entrained water. Question is should the tolly look like milk right now? Is this a shitload of entrained water or is something wrong?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Addict)
10-04-04 07:28
No 534355
Swim doesn't trust this "let the NP sit shit" to remove entrained water. SetUP a funnel in a mason jar. Add a piece of cotton ball to plug the funnel and dump in about 60 grams of dry MgSO4 into the funnel.
Then pour your NP layer through the epsoms and cotton. Once it is done dripping into the mason jar, then you can GO ahead and gas it! Not drying your NP will rob you of precious precursor. I know Fester recommends the sit and wait in his writeUP but Swim would advise against it. It will work occasionally but once you've suffered the mystery of the disappearing pseudo, just one time, its enough to make you want to do things correctly and not take shortcuts. If the milky consistency is something other then moisture, the filtering may go a long way in dealing with some of this.
Refuse/Resist
(Newbee)
10-04-04 18:46
No 534398
kewl, thx sd, and by dry you mean baked in oven at 400 degrees for 1 hour?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Bee)
10-04-04 22:10
No 534415
That's what he means, to bake the epsom salts til dry.
Don't worry
it's just stigmata
pass me a napkin ... and don't you dare tell my mother
(Newbee)
10-05-04 02:54
No 534461
These pills suck! Tolly sat all day and cleared, gassed and white formed but falls right through filters. Evapping all tolly now. Had the same problem when used these before and got triple gaaked in rxn. These were left overs and swim will NOT be pursuing this mix again. Don't even know if evaps will be safe to use.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
10-05-04 12:48
No 534525
What was the ID of these pills? It's an important bit of info so that new formulations can be tracked. I think you were a bit on the light side with the use of KOH, also, the wash with water of the toluene extract was skipped. Much shit comes out on that wash. Once most shit has been removed, the toluene will generally shed any water upon sitting a couple hours and be fit for gassing once transferred to a clean beaker.
(Newbee)
10-05-04 18:23
No 534557
Uncle:
These were the inactives:
Ammonium Hydroxide, carnauba wax, croscarmellose sodium, dibutyl sebacate, thylcellulose, FD&C red #40 Al. Lake, FD&C yellow #6 Al. Lake, fumed silica, hypremellose, lactose, microcrystalline cellulose, oleic acid, polyethylene glycol, povidone, pregelatinized starch, silicon dioxide, stearic acid, sucrose, talc, and titanium oxide.
$1 24 x 30
Tolly was washed 3x with 1/2 volumes of dh20.
This is second try at this particular super generic brand. Same story last time. Tolly was evapped to give back 2g out of 3.6 possible of soft, flaky, slightly sparkly FB pseudo.
These were so generic it actually stated on the box that they were not produced by the same manufacturers of Sudafed. Don't want to names sources though. Will publish as much info off of box as possible when swim gets home tonight.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Newbee)
10-06-04 02:55
No 534605
More on the monster pseudos:
What info is swiuf looking for, a lot #? swim doesn't want to list anything that shouldn't be listed.
Pharmacist's Signature
Lot#: ZS4E078 H
Pharmaceutical Formulations, Inc.
Swim hopes this isn't too much info or considered naming sources, just wanted to make sure swiuf got all the info needed. If too much was listed pls let swit_c know what can be posted from this list and future posts will be less listed.
BTW, washed tolly evaps 2 grams original with tone to give 1.5 grams of pseudo. Dissolved in methanol and in process of rxtalizing. More later.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
10-06-04 04:47
No 534616
I missed the repeated water washes in your procedure. In any case, 6 or 7 gr of KOH was enough for the Walgreens generics which were closely in accord with the original patent. When moving on to the brand names and Wally Worlds store brand, the KOH had to go up to 10 gr per 100 30 mg pill. If the toluene extract is cloudy after water washing, and won't settle out...that is uncleaved polymer dragged through. Up the KOH level, and let us know what happens. You may also have to filter the toluene extract, but in my experience that was only needed when using makeshift KOH from NaOH and KCl. Boost it up, and let us know.
(Newbee)
10-06-04 05:29
No 534628
Tolly did finally clear and was gassed to no avail. Evapped the tolly extracts for the FB. Washed with acetone, dissolved in methanol and is slowly recrystallizing with the nice cool night. Swim has 3 or 4 more boxes of these and will up the KOH to ratios given. Any other tips or pointers swiuf?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Addict)
10-06-04 17:29
No 534681
Uncle Fester: This condition being described with filtration problems and milkiness is reminiscent of hydropropylmethylcellullose and MCC in combo that comprise the DryMatrixFormulation(DMF).
That DMF still runs rampant in most all the pills described in this thread and in most reports lately that list inactives...
Unc_F, Being the gaak thwarter and inventor of this technique that sidesteps eudragit, also recently discovered and shared the unique mindset of getting the gaak out of the way first then dealing with the goodz for further purification.
I wouldn't put forth this recomendation if it could feasibly interfere with method or instigate extraction problems.
So with that U_F...Ibee wants to suggest to you first a method that may help sidestep the problems others are reporting.
A pre-extract Tetrachloroethylene wash might work wonders on the pillmass at removing some of the nasties that are forcing higher KOH amounts to be used in order to skirt by all the cleavage in that beautypageant
Just a suggestion and a thought...nothing more!
If it helps...it helps...
I strongly doubt it could hurt.
Happy extracting!
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Popular Author)
10-06-04 23:56
No 534738
Not knowing the pills ID has slowed up my reply, however, if they are the Wally World pills, or brand name, when enough KOH is in the mix, it makes a milky solution upon hydrolysis, and the milkiness consists of white flakes. They settle out over a few hours, and workup proceeds as usual. This variety takes a larger load of KOH. I can't understand the squeemishness about mentioning pill brands. No mention of sources is meant to prevent some innocent supplier of useful chems from having his life turned into a living hell. It's not meant to prevent ID of an OTC product sold by the millions. I barely have time to get my dishes done, so directness is invaluable for me. I doubt it is a dry matrix formulation. More likely that gak exhausted the KOH...I could be proven wrong...
(Hive Addict)
10-07-04 00:56
No 534750
On sourcing and specifics, I won't go into the thick of it.
And I agree that it wouldn't hurt the source much nor would it likely have an effect on what they are doing with newer formulations.
I do feel that one's livelyhood and liberty could be placed in jeopardy if they include so much information that is undeniable in the court of law that this is no longer a hypothetical theory based discussion.
Lot#'s...exp dates...NIC numbers...all that info adds up.
Description, smells, etc... of certain gaaks might even narrow down ones illicit activity.
Even if it were allowed and the Hive could never be held accountable today...doesn't mean that won't change tomorrow.
There is a fine line being walked as it is in regards to the sites disclaimer and the freedom we are given to speak our minds.
I wopuld rather side with caution to insure the site's longevity and safety if in fact anything was ever challenged here.
That's just my opinion.
There is a distinct odor of eudragit and our friend chemosabe brought this up while not being able to put a finger on it. I'm happy for that...for him/her/it that shy away from such identifying info.
While I know for for a fact the name of that aroma...I'll not disclose that in writing.
I'm looking at it like this.
They know who Ibee is...they know ibee's name...
They can only guess what Ibee's doing based on what he tells them he['s doing...and he's so full of crypticBS you'd have to bee a fool to take his word for anything!
So to tie UP the loose ends for them....Well Fuck that!
Ibee'll leave the burden of proof on them!
If that's too graphic, paranoid, farfetched and nobody likes it....well...
Welcome to the internet SWIM!
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Stranger)
10-07-04 00:59
No 534751
Uncle, If not enough koh is being used in many cases. Is there worse affects by useing to much koh if that's possible? Second, could a reflux over 30 min. assure a better finish?
(Popular Author)
10-07-04 03:12
No 534766
In the example recipe given in my old org chem textbook..Intro to Org Chem by Streitwieser..they used almost twice as much KOH in their hydrolysis as in my original expt. with the Walgreens pills. Since those pills are long ago part of the sewer system, I feel no fear of heading up the river over them. Fooling with sudafed pills to determine their makeup is no crime. There may well be a "too much" point for KOH, but this level isn't there yet.
(Newbee)
10-07-04 03:13
No 534767
Swim is a little unsure of exactly where the pill ID is located. There are 2 bar codes with differing #'s, one on the outside of the box and one if you open the end on the inner flap. When these were boiled they did go from pinkish red to orange to milky white. Swim inadvertently overlooked a step in swiuf method, the step of letting the freshly boiled IPA settle until clear. Swim had 4 more boxes left and decided to start this time with a 24 hour xylene soak. swim will continue with the rest tomorrow. Something odd, swim took the last extract and washed with tone, then dissolved in methanol and chilled in frig and then moved to freezer, noticed some gritty stuff in bottom of beaker so let it return to room temp to filter. What swim thinks is the pseudo just became a milky cloud suspended in the methanol after cooling and after it returned to room temp the cloud remained, also it would float from bottom to top at different temps. Shouldn't the pseudo have redissolved? Solid xtals never seemed to have formed. Is this gear or uncleaved polymer? Methanol is clear other than white cloud which stays together to some extent and when shaken reforms after 30-60 minutes.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
10-07-04 12:57
No 534809
Just the brand will fine for identification. A presoak in solvent shouldn't be needed if enough KOH is in the brew, and do let the flakes settle out. It's a simple and effective way of removing a load of crap from the mixture.
(Newbee)
10-07-04 15:55
No 534822
Another thing, swim was reading through all the pill xtrction techs on Rhodium's site and read a few places that letting the PM sit in the ISO IPA too long will allow it to start absorbing polymers. Does this apply here or does it matter or is swim misunderstanding what was written. It was in the STE and STB techs. Only did xylene soak for 2 hours drained and dried and is sitting in 200mL 91% ISO IPA now, figured it sitting overnight in ISO certainly couldn't hurt anything. KOH is pure from chem supply and will boil these last 4 boxes down this evening. So 96 pills + 10 grams KOH? Would it hurt to use 12 grams? Another question, on future xtractions, swim is going to pursue some white 60's because swim had very good luck with these using ISO and evaporated drain cleaner, could swim use methanol instead of ISOIPA? The KOH as understood is soluble in alcohol. And one last question, would it be easier and more efficient to only do extractions in 100 pill segments or is it worthwhile to do 400 or 500 at one time?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
10-08-04 02:17
No 534876
hasn't bothered to read through the thread before doing experimental. Did it save you time? No, it wasted pills, effort, danger and money. The Chemical God is pleased that it also didn't cause polluting solvents to be spewed in a wasted effort. Read the thread and follow directions. Then your problems will be solved. If you would like a shorter summary of the thread, SOMM 7 is out in a few months. If you would like to invent your own method, feel free, but I think the experimental on this one was done well. I only get cranky when it is obvious that the experimenter hasn't read the text.
(Newbee)
10-08-04 14:52
No 534952
Swim read entire thread it is just so long it is hard to retain it all, it took swim 4 hours to read entire thread if that tells anything. Sorry if the questions seemed whatever. swim remembers reading something about methanol in thread and will just search it out. Nevermind.
Was going of a publishing emergency, but read ALL OTHER experiments. Sorry to bother.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-08-04 15:46
No 534957
Relax, one day you will understand his frustrations and if not it is a small thing compared.. Methanol? The key to this whole KOH method is "hydro" Water in short. 91% IPA contains 9% water which has a key roll in this method. A substitute will create more problems that will only generate more questions and lead the technique into a totally different extraction method, in turn this will even confuse things more turning a gift thread into a hard to follow mess of try this or try that with no confirmation on anything. Miss one post and you got to start over. Your 4 hours turns into 6... Sometimes a break from everything is in order to reflect on what you have read and after a few days relaxing it will hit you like a ton of bricks... Trust me on that.. Relax.
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Newbee)
10-08-04 18:17
No 534963
Thanks Jacked, wasn't trying to be shitty with anyone, just got frustrated which swim is sure is a regular occurence round here. Will stick to do it by the book technique. Sorry uf.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
10-09-04 16:16
No 535038
There are three experimentals which are required reading. The original exp headed Publishing Emergency using Walgreens generics, the later one using brand name red hots,and the following one using Walmart generics. Walgreens generics are formulated exactly according to the Patent, and hydrolyse nicely using maybe 7 gr KOH per 100. The brand name pills are a more advanced formulation which plugs filters, and produces a milky suspension when hydrolysed. This formulation benefits from using around 10 gr KOH per 100. Then with the Walmart generics, it was found that they are virtually identical to the brand name formulation. One can assume that many off brand generics will also be formulated in a similar manner. It was also found in later experiments that solvent presoak isn't required except in the case of 25 mg ephedrine and 200 mg guifenesin pills. A soak in toluene to remove guifenesin is required with them. One could expect similar results with sudo pills containing tylenol.
(Newbee)
10-12-04 03:41
No 535440
4 boxes of 24 x 30 pills super loaded with inactives were first put into a "beaker" and covered with acetone until about 1/2" of tone stood over pills. Then dh20 was added 4-5 drops at a time and then swirled. This was repeated in these increments until red began to losen and was finally removed to a slight orange tint. Pills then filtered and allowed to dry overnight. Then crushed to a fine powder in a "mortar and pestle" and covered with 200ml of 91% ISO IPA and allowed to sit 24 hours. Then filtered and put over heat, as small bubbles began to move quickly from bottom to top of alky, 12 grams of KOH chips were added in 4 gram increments over about 15 minutes. Then solution was boiled 30 minutes. Color changed from red-orange to melon to milky white with coffee colored layer on bottom. This has been allowed to sit 24 hours to settle and is awaiting evaporation due to lack of time. Will post further results as they are obtained. As of now, solution is almost clear with the coffee layer and now a white layer on top of the coffee. Will sit at least another 24 hours before evaporating. Looking very good so far though.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Stranger)
10-15-04 09:47
No 535923
Recently, while trying this method, SWIR couldn't seem to get the goodies out of the toluene. After much head scratching and pondering, he simply 'overgassed' the tolly. The extended gassing seemed to precipitate the pfed HCl with few gaks following.
SWIR still likes to rextallize twice anyway before reacting, and has noticed few problems with this overgassing.
(Popular Author)
10-15-04 13:03
No 535951
No need for any solvent presoak except with the 200 mg guifenesin pills with 25 mg ephedrine. Decant off the clear alcohol from the settled flakes and coffee layer, and just proceed with the workup.
(Hive Bee)
10-15-04 16:05
No 535968
Last night, swit_c brought ISOIPA that was holding pseudo after KOH boil from most recent post with the pretty colors to another boil and boiled down to 1/4" of fluid left in beaker. Lots of sparkly xtals. Added 20ml of dh20 once completely dry and swirled, added to sep. funnel, added 25ml tolly to beaker, swirled, added to funnel, added 50ml more to beaker swirled added to funnel. Washed with dh20 3 times. Drained tolly into clean beaker and let sit overnight to drain entrained water, noticed tolly was perfectly clear this morning. Water washes remained cloudy. What water couldn't get drained in sep funnel was left with a very small amount of tolly on top. Gassed this and put in evap dish to find nice crystalline, film this morning that looked kind of like how ice freezes to windows in the winter. Will gas tolly tonight as was on way to work.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
10-16-04 14:14
No 536073
(Rated as: good idea!)
As the alcohol nears being completely evaporated away, one must be careful with the heating on the evaporation. If you heat to dryness, you may well burn the pseudo extract and end up with nothing. Hot water and a fan blowing over the top of the beaker may be the best choice for rapid evaporation of that last bit.
(Popular Author)
10-16-04 23:07
No 536113
As to the KOH usage, on my first run I tossed in maybe 7 gr per 100 pills and boiled for 15 minutes. To see if there was more to get, I let the layer fall to the bottom and decanted the alcohol. The alcohol went back to the beaker, and I added another gram or so of KOh and boiled for another 10 min. I got a little bit more layer at the bottom. If that was from not allowing enough time for the layer to fall out all the way and settle, or if it was from more gak being whacked, I'm not sure. The brand name pills and most generic knock offs which plug filters certainly benefit from going up to 10 gr per 100 pills. Beyond that, as to increasing time or more KOH, one could repeat my original line of thought by just separating off the precipitated crap and boil more or add some more KOH and see if more crap falls out. I think 10 gr is enough for the pills now out, but do give it a try if you want.
(Popular Author)
10-16-04 23:12
No 536114
if I read your posting correctly, all you have is an ice film of psuedo? It should be a snowstorm which requires filtering and drying. Do give more details....
(Popular Author)
10-17-04 01:30
No 536127
My kids are too nice to whack, but if I did my son would put up a battle. Your posts on this page allow me to be a whacking bastard. The pills require no solvent presoak, but if a presoak should be done, it better be np. Instead you modify the procedure and use acetone and water presoak. Both dissolve product, and both could be used as recrystallization solvent. What buzzing was in your ears after reading the experimentals in the rest of this thread that caused you to do this?? If you have an itch to presoak, use toluene, xylene or naptha.
Then after letting the entrained water in the extract settle, pour into a clean and dry beaker to gas, while leaving the water droplets behind. Don't act like a violated or otherwise misused victim when reading this post because you said previously that you were going to follow the procedure, but continue to invent amateurishly along the way.
(Hive Bee)
10-17-04 09:40
No 536159
the tone and water was only used because swim was told to at least remove some of the red. The ice film swim spoke of was from the tiny bit of water and tolly that swim couldn't separate do to ghetto sep.funnel, so swim figured what the hell and evapped that little bit while waiting to gass tolly. When finally gassed it gassed beautifully, returned about 2 grams. Swim reacted this with 6g I and 4g MBRP (excessive swim knows but got tired of disappointments) and 1ml dh20 inside about a 400-500ml ghetto flask with 4' of braided pvc hose and a punch balloon on the end. Cooked for 3.5 hours did a standard workup and returned about 1.25 to 1.5 grams of kickass sheite!! Prepping a 7 grammer with UF's technique on some generic waly's world 60's. So far so good........and high, woohoo!
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Popular Author)
10-18-04 00:10
No 536239
...for acetone as recrystallization solvent for ephedrine and sudo. There is the Emde article from Chem Abstracts from the '20's that everyone should be familiar with, also Chem Abstracts Vol. 47, col. 3347. Cold acetone can be used as a quick wash, but not a presoak as that uses large volumes of solvent. The stuff dissolves the goods and should be used appropriately. Quit worrying about the color of the coat of the pills, it's what is inside that screws you.
(Hive Bee)
10-18-04 16:18
No 536359
6 boxes of 24 x 60 Wally's world generics listing 3 inactives. Crushed to fine powder, extracted 3 times with 150ml 91% ISO IPA. Each 150ml portion brought to a boil separately and added 10g KOH each at time of boiling. Boiled 30 minutes each. Allowed these to sit for 30 minutes each to settle, then decanted and combined extracts in evap dish and evapped to near dry. Scraped xtals from dish and added 30ml dh20 put this in sep funnel, added 75ml of tolly to dish 3 times and added to funnel. Washed with dh20 3 times with volumes equal to 1/2 volume of tolly. Poured into clean beaker, allowed to sit 30 minutes to drain entrained water and gassed to recover 6g out of 8.64g total available of very high quality pseudo. Reacted this and all went like a dream.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Bee)
10-20-04 00:37
No 536692
Whats your view on hydrolysing by acid reflux? We know it won't destroy the E but will racemize it (ref = The Alkaloids, Manske etc). Wonder if acid reflux (~10% HCl) will hydrolyse polymers also?
***FriedPiper***
Reality is just a crutch for people who can't handle drugs...
(Popular Author)
10-20-04 13:04
No 536774
They're in the thread a few pages back.
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-21-04 22:10
No 536998
UF try taking some of the red off first (WW red dots)(dull finnish) and see how much faster it filters. Its like night and day compared. I would recommend that one step before doing an extraction requiring a filtration..
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Hive Bee)
10-21-04 22:53
No 537013
This bee tried Jacked's advice on da red one's and by god he is right again!
De-redding works wonders for the filtration. With no notice of lost pseudoephedrine.Here is a link for the sulfuric acid hydrolysis and an excerpt:
The 7% final sulfuric acid concentration run gave maybe 25% yield of what seems to be high quality pseudoephedrine. It may well be mixed with ephedrine, racephedrine...
The 5% final sulfuric acid concentration boil gave over 50%, and maybe close to 65% yield of what seems to be high quality product.
Post 523508 (UncleFester: "sulfuric acid hydrolysis", Stimulants)
Makes me stand UP/move around
69
(Master Searcher)
10-24-04 03:41
No 537393
Post 172833 (PolytheneSam: "Re: Polymers, polymers: BLAH: Gimmee a BRAKE", Stimulants)
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.
(Popular Author)
10-24-04 13:39
No 537458
So that's where they put that filter plugging ingredient. It's just amazing how fast the stuff will make a coffee filter nonfunctional. On the post after the sulfuric acid hydrolysis you will see that after the solvent evaporated from the gassing it became apparent that the product wasn't the good quality material obtained from KOH hydrolysis and would need recrystallization.
(Stranger)
10-24-04 13:39
No 537459
is the evaporation of KOH from drain cleaner fesible?
Furthermore, from a solution that in its MSDS is described as 16% KOH and the rest comprising of water.. Would such a method be suited?
To bee or not to be
(Stranger)
10-24-04 15:16
No 537465
if its 16% KOH and 84% water, then as your name says... THINK.
Evap, so you minus the water... you will be left with just KOH.
Thats ALL the info you gave us, and what i gave you is the only answer you can get back, and of course you could of worked that one out for yourself, no?
And if your asking that question expecting someone to turn around and go, no theirs some denaturant in their, how the hell is anyone suppose to know. Because you said it yourself, its just KOH + Water.
(Hive Bee)
10-25-04 16:04
No 537689
2 questions. 1. Last KOH boil developed 2 layers but lower layer remained clear to milky, pseudo gassed from tolly as usual and appears fine, should no coffee color in bottom layer bee a concern? and 2. Can KOH used in this process bee recycled and if so how? Take it easy on swim UF.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Bee)
10-25-04 18:10
No 537707
An easy ghetto way of telling about your pseudoephedrine is too burn test it on foil. Just take a small sample of your extract and vaporize it. Take a notice of the residue it leaves. From personal experience, as well as advice from other bees, if it leaves a white powdery substance, then there are still polymers and the pseudo is not ready for a reaction. If it leaves black or brown traces it is reaction worthy, but will still likely be gakked. Want one wants is for almost no residue at all left on the foil. This will, if reacted properly produce in this bee's experience a very, clean post reaction workUP and potent methamphetamine.
Makes me stand UP/move around
69
(Popular Author)
10-26-04 02:41
No 537809
As I recall it was the name brand sudo pills which gave an oily layer which didn't turn coffee colored. They worked up with no problem. The lack of color on the oil layer may be due to using a better grade of crap additive.
(Hive Bee)
10-27-04 21:54
No 538130
Can the KOH from this procedure be recovered and used again and if so how?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-28-04 01:01
No 538192
Not as easy as it is to just buy, its not like your asking for LG RP or something of the like. If you want to fuck with that snotty mess you got it bad man.. I would rather fuck with anything but that.
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Hive Bee)
10-28-04 19:19
No 538343
Good point, forget that. Swit_c has also found some drain cleaner containing bleach and KOH if left to evap forms a good layer of KOH that resembles KOH that swit_c purchased a while back.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Stranger)
10-29-04 13:09
No 538508
How well does the KOH/ISO cure work with pseudo sulfate pills?
(Hive Bee)
10-29-04 21:21
No 538591
From Uncle's text above:
Is pseudo sulfate difficult to get dissolved in alcohol? If so, a bit of HCl in the extraction alcohol might help....otherwise I can see no reason why pseudo sulfate pills wouldn't behave in a similar way...
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-30-04 03:28
No 538653
Swim has never seen pseudo sulfate gacked up. The only sulfate he has seen came from behind the counter in 25mg caps. All that has to be done is an A/B with HCl to get to a workable product... You could use KOH instead of Sodium hydroxide in the basing if you wanted to..
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Popular Author)
10-31-04 00:09
No 538784
Off the shelf at a local market 240 mg pseudo sulfate pills with 10 mg loratadine. Among the listed ingredients: black iron oxide, candellilla wax, colloidial SiO2, glyceryl monostearate, hypromellose, lactose, Mg Stearate, PEG, polysorbate 80, sodium lauryl sulfate...and probably eudragit among the unlisted ingredients.
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-31-04 02:54
No 538844
I had no idea. They don't carry sulfate in my neck of the woods except BTC by request. These you can buy 3 bottles at 100ea in one visit there 25mg E Sulfate that weighs in at a little over 25mg's with the jell cap. The hard part is actually going up to the pharmacist and asking for them. No script needed but behind the counter none the less.
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Hive Bee)
11-01-04 18:08
No 539089
3 boxes of CVS 48ct. white 60's
Pills finely ground and added to 450ml 91% ISO IPA
Shaken well and left to soak for 2 hours.
Filtered.
Alky divided into 2 equal portions.
Both portions brought to boil.
Portion #1:
Added 15 grams of KOH when alky began boiling, boiled 30 minutes. Allowed to settle and cool. Upper layer decanted off and put in evap dish and evapped until almost completely dry. Added 20ml dh2o, put this in separatory funnel. Added 125ml of toluene in 3 equal portions and added to separatory funnel. Washed this with dh20 3x. Next toluene was poured through filter papers and funnel filled with dried epsom salts 3x and gassed to return 3 grams of pristine looking pseudo.
Portion #2:
Brought to boil and added 5 grams of KOH from supplier and 20 grams KOH evapped from drain cleaner containing KOH and bleach (was out of the chips), evapped until no more smell of bleach could be detected. These evapped chips brought on a yellow color to entire mix that would not leave, assumed due to traces of bleach that were left behind. Same procedure as Portion #1 and at the end after gassing had pseudo with a yellow tint and this was washed with acetone until white, about 2 grams.
Each portion was reacted separately and during basing of rxn fluid color went from blue to green to brown. Yields from portion #1 rxn was 2 grams of methamphetamine from initial 3 grams of pseudo pulled from pills. Yield from portion #2 was about 1.25 grams of meth from 2 grams of pseudo pulled from pills. Was this OI and OII gacks slipping through the KOH boil?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Addict)
11-09-04 13:15
No 540624
Uncl: So until that time that the goo reimmerges on the scene...it isn't necessary to grind UP pills in the presense of solvent.
Is that right?
Not that Ibee uses grinders and blenders et.al.
He'd like to clear UP any confusion before there is any.
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Hive Bee)
11-09-04 17:56
No 540665
Ibee grinds his pills up in a ceramic cup with the plastic handle off of a screwdriver. Hand cramps often but works well as a ghetto mortar and pestle.
BTW Uncle Fester: Still waiting for new run of KOH to arrive so evapped that shitty drain cleaner that switc has and took swiy's tip about a quick bake, seemed to work like a charm. Boiled down 48 x 60mg white equates with 10 grams of the evapped KOH. The odd thing is no layers ever formed after 45 minutes of boiling and not all of the KOH chips dissolved, left the bottom 1/8" remaining in the beaker anyway, pseudo FB evapped out nicely washed this with water and acetone and rxted to give some excellent gogo. Any ideas on the no layers thing? Started with 150ml of 91%ISOIPA and 10 grams KOH.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
11-09-04 23:45
No 540712
Swim evaps the alcohol and takes the dry FB then does a water wash while still in the filter swim will spray acetone over the FB, some crystal surfaces are holding gack and the acetone etches this surface, very little FB is lost. Compair it to washing a recrystallized meth crystal with alcohol to etch the surface.. The resulting FB crystal is very white and clean. Plus it helps facilitate drying. Swim prefers FB reactions to HCl anyday.
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Stranger)
11-10-04 02:37
No 540727
How about extreme deconstruction of the ground up pills with sulfuric acid and steam disillation? (see the ephedrine to p2p syth on Rhodium) Anybody have any thoughts on this idea?
(arrogant bee of the day)
11-10-04 13:25
No 540812
I've said it before and I'll say it again. KOH solution...i.e. KOH dissolved in water, when evapped does not give you KOH. KOH upon evap reacts with the air to make something else, I can't remember what that is but it is not the same. In the case of isomerizing safrole, it is bad, fucks everything and even eats glass. This might not hurt you with pills but be aware of it. KOH RAW is too easy to get to be fucking with solution shit. Bee warned.
Use the KOH solution as is if a bit of water isn't a problem, don't evap it.
It's not really me, it's Android in disguise!
(Hive Bee)
11-11-04 21:30
No 541074
Switc evapped KOH/Bleach drain cleaner and was left with white flakes, took these and baked in the oven for about 20 minutes. Boiled down 48 60's with 2 inactives listed. No layers formed. Evapped alky to give the FB pseudo and reacted this to give excellent gear (1st FB rxn posted in Stimulants). So, if the drain cleaner doesn't evap to give KOH then what the hell did switc boil switc's pills with and how the hell was clean gear the product? All of the supposed KOH flakes would not dissolve either and used the recommended amount of 10 grams for every 2.88 grams. When rxn solution was basified only changed to milky white, no off colors present. Very confused.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Bee)
11-11-04 22:28
No 541081
This method was tried on name brand pills with 4mg of Chlorpheniramine maleate and 60mg of Pseudoephedrine HCl per pill. With the following inactives: lactose, magnesium stearate, potato starch, and povidone. Upon adding KOH to the IPA no color change was noticed. The solution was clear for about 5 minutes... then it turned a murky yellowish... then a dark brown. As the solution turned brown a dark red precipitate came out of solution (it looked like RP). The last bits of KOH that where about to dissolve also turned this dark red color. The solution was allowed to boil for 20 minutes and no layers formed. The red precipitate was filtered out and the solution was allowed to cool and let sit for a few hours to see if any layers would form... no layers formed. This dark brown solution was evaporated on very low heat and there was a brownish crystalline mass at the bottom that looked like it had a gravy mother over it. Some dH20 was added to the beaker and put into a sep funnel and then some Toluene was added to the beaker and that was placed into the sep funnel. Most of the brown solid stayed in the aqueous phase. The Toluene was washed two times with dH20. The Toluene was then dried and gassed. DrugPhreak expected no crystals to form, but white crystals did in fact form. DrugPhreak doesn't know what these crystals are though cause they sure ain’t P-Fed.
They are not bitter at all... not acidic either. They had a slightly salty taste. Potassium Chloride maybe or something?!??! O_o 
DrugPhreak put the rest of their feed thru the Straight to E procedure and it appears that very nice P-Fed was obtained from these pills that way. DrugPhreak used some of their post Straight to E feed with this KOH/IPA procedure just to see if that red precipitate would form... it didn't and the solution stayed clear. DrugPhreak didn't go thru the whole process again cause they where getting sleepy as fuck and felt extremely exhausted... not to mention braking their 1000ml sep funnel.
DrugPhreak was amazed that the solution stayed clear though. Other tests where preformed on this feed obtained with Straight to E and they all went well (e.g. burn test) etc. DrugPhreak is truly sick and tired of the gakk and this will be their last time obtaining feed from pills. I think it's really about time we all use the easily obtainable Ma-Huang to get our feed. These pills are seriously overpriced and we don't need their damn pills! We shouldn't have to jump thru loops to get high and we don't have too! Let them keep their infestations to themselves. I will devote as much time and energy that is needed to prefect a Ma-Huang extraction that is easy, OTC, and high yielding. I'm in the process of obtaining and translating the follow patents. If any Bees can help me obtain these patents or can translate them I would appreciate it very much. They are:
Patent CN1132740
Patent CN1443749
Patent IN185200
Patent CN1364756
Crank is part of this complete breakfast.