09-28-04 22:25
No 533618
Marvin said this works,
and asked that I fling it up here:
I corrected his abyssmal spelling,
and made his sentence structure readable.
Most of all, I have deleted the spray of saliva
that comes out of his pie-hole when he's excitedly
trying to communicate something
that HE thinks is important..
Plus, there is no way for me to impart it over to you
anyway. Just consider yourself spat upon. No:
just consider that you owe me big-time for the disgusting
circumstances I live thru just for you. yuk!
=============
If you place your MA.HCl in MEK,
in a microwave,
and heat it:
it will dissolve.
Take it out and place it on a black background
with a side light. (Flashlight in dark is best..)
Swirl the vessell and make a cyclone in the fluid..
As the MEK cools, debris will fall out and be seen
to collect in the center:
forced there by centripital accelleration.
Keep giving it swirls,
and keep watching what collects.
An enormous amount of crud will be seen
before the beginning of precipitation of the good stuff:
at that point (when the good stuff begins to be seen..)
pop it back into the micro for 5 seconds,
and then vacuum filter it.
(The vaccuum filtration is preferred
so that your good stuff will go thru
and not be caught with the trash..)
Marvey stated that even Goiter Joe would be convinced
about the poly-ampholytes, once he saw the process:
truly amazing threads of tiny wire are seen to manifest:
rocks of white and red can be seen:
and the powerfully rotton effects of these contaminants
avoided with this technique..
Enterprising investigators will note that the
subsequent precipitation of MA isomers is temperature
isolated by about 3 degres C.:
thus there remains the possibility that they can be separated, and that the inactive material present
in todays formulations
{(-)-pseudoephedrine>>> (R)-methamphetamine}
can be selectively "pulled" without the usual
tartaric acid and similar techniques.
seePost 503354 (dwarfer: "(-)( -) Pseudo, Selegiline, and YOU", Stimulants)
Surely additional information will be developed in this regard.
Until then, this cleaning technique is effective,
and lossless as regards recovery of goods.
of course, Marvin is a braggart, and cannot be trusted.
i don't believe a word of it, personally..
dwarfer
(Hive Bee)
09-29-04 02:52
No 533671
the cyclone you mention can bee a friend to bees in several situations. simply spinning water in a bowl will tends to isolate the heavier-than-water contaminents neatly in the center bottom of the bowl. a bowl with a special depression in the center bottom makes removal of the unwanted particles easier.
depending on what one is hopping to isolate with the centrifuge, various solvents could bee used that are heavier or lighter than water.
this is applicable to cleaning mbrp, for instance.
(esoteric)
09-29-04 19:40
No 533823
Some of the ??crystalline?? appearing "rocks" of
whiteish and reddish hue come from the poly-ampholytes
getting all wrapped up in themselves.
No lie: not even a guess. I've been reading up on the suckers,
and it is fascinating stuff.
I'll post some extractions from the literature. later.
what I can understand: it's "Monte Carlo" statistical
simulations, Bjeran lengths, effects at charged surfaces,
and some things I can only pretend to begin to understand
even what they are talking about.
however, it has been a confirmation of the beginning
studies I did under "Salti the Wonder Dawg," a few clicks back:
turns out that certain levels of salt have good effect...
======
No the stirrer won't work:
it will get in the way.
The best light is one which can be focussed to a spot.
The best back drop is black. Cloth will work:
but it has to be stretched over something..
Shine it thru, and be amazed..
You are looking at things which are ??unknown?? in size:
sub-micron, I'd say:
and clearly trash...
bad, nasty, disgusting, yukky, sickening trash;
try it: you'll like it..
dwarfer
(Of Counsel)
09-30-04 07:41
No 533910
If the temperature at which gakk falls out is higher than that at which the meth falls out, one should be able to vacuum filter the solids from the MEK solution at a temperature just before the meth begins to precipitate, taking the solids out and leaving the meth in solution. Right?
What part does the cyclone play in cleaning? Other than allowing you to visualize when the meth begins to precipitate?
mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
09-30-04 12:31
No 533942
Geez...you may recall Ibee's mini re-xtalling techique that utililized an alky redissolve of pfed when the swirly gaaks started infesting the pinwheels?
That alky redissolve then incorporated a swirling of all the dissolved particles/pfed in order to allow a separation based on weights.
The pfed pinwheels would be found in the middle upon evap in the evap plate and the swirlys would be on the outer fringes of the plate.
It was a crude sep technique...but was effective back in the day.
Dwarfer most definately embarks on novel separation approach due to weights and density of the composition.
It's also most effective when you can visually see what you are dealing with when they all are broken down by separation.
I'm assuming that the cycloning he describes is along this same principal as the one Ibee found effective against just the swirly gaaks.
It also confirms Ibee's suspicion as of late that most of the co-polymers are heavier than pfed today whereas this wasn't always the case.
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Hive Bee)
09-30-04 13:22
No 533951
wareami,
like an a/b extraction, the use of gravity allows one to decide if its the stuff in the bottom center that they want to keep; or if its the stuff to toss. the seperation is what we seek.
adding measured amounts of NaCl to H2O can fine tune the density sorting possibilities.
same with various solvents and benign solvates.
(Of Counsel)
09-30-04 14:51
No 533957
WAre: If you put it all back in the micro for five seconds to heat it up just past the point the MA starts to precipitate and filter with a vacuum so it won't cool enough while filtering for the MA to precipitate, you theoretically do not reheat the solution to the point at which the solids Marvin has seen in the cyclone redissolve.
The filter paper in the buchner funnel grabs the solids. The whole solution is filtered, and there is no outer edge of a pie plate to which you can pan the trash.
What does the cyclone do? Cool the center faster? The method doesn't say "filter these solids out, then reheat the MEK meth solution...."
(That dimwit Marvin is probably responsible for my confusion. Surely he left something out translating his escapades to his neighbor, who happens to be a friend of mine most days of the week, but it could be the general state of confusion in Dwarfer's mind caused by low blood pressure secondary to...
ummm... nevermind. )
mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
09-30-04 16:25
No 533973
Geez: I see now...Somehow I missed the part about rezapping for 5 seconds after the cycloning.
If I were to go out on a limb here...it would surely snap...
We all know what troublemaker the Big D is
Zub-a dub dub:
Believe it or not....the major success factor in most of Ibees extraction techniques is the reliance on gravity in solution/solvent extractions of pillmass.
And as you say...density plays a large role just as in a/b.
These are critical areas in separation.
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(esoteric)
10-01-04 01:28
No 534009
I think the MEK is likely around .8 density:
that assumption is a memory that may be wrong.
I think the circulation concentrates it because the material
is less dense than the liquid:
but on the other hand, if you let it sit, they settle, so that can't be right.
On the other hand, if you try to concentrate BB's or
marbles that way you will be sadly disappointed:
Therefore, then, it is obvious that my thought process
is faulty. whas new?
lemmeee see: the vortex moves faster in the middle:
the liquid is constrained or would make a mess:
I've got it: the liquid compresses on the outside, making
it denser there than in the middle, so the less compressible
solids "float" to the center......
never mind:
I've GOT to get some sleep.
<yawn>
dwarfer
(Newbee)
10-01-04 18:23
No 534088
The centrifugal force causes the liquid at the edges to rise up the container causing things to fall inward....I't's difficult to find anything clearly addressing this subject.
Pressure differences and gravity gradients are all I can find. Just to confuse the matter comercial cyclone seperators use centrifugal force to shoot things to the edges of a vortex:
1. Definition of cyclone separators: A cyclone separator is a very useful piece of equipment for the removal from air streams of particles above 10 micrometer in diameter. The equipment is a settling chamber in the form of a vertical cylinder, so arranged that the particle laden air spirals round the cylinder to create centrifugal forces which throw the particles to the outside walls (Learle, 1966 )
(esoteric)
10-01-04 18:53
No 534092
It is not immediately obvious to me why these particles, whcih do not float, are forced to the middle..
I presume it is similar to cushioning an egg from a fall by having it in a water-filled container and dropping it. The force is distributed equally, so it take a lot of force to break it.
So ?? the only vector left is the centripital??
but:
what is the point at which the density of the particle is such that the centrifugal force cause it to go OUTwards??
Shouldn't I kow this? Did I ever? I'm feeling dumb.
I have to have an excuse:
um:
sorry: to dumb to think of one. sleeeepy...
oh fuk they took out dwarferize so snore i have to do itsnorrrrrrrreeee myself
snorrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeee
dwarfer
(Newbee)
10-01-04 19:13
No 534094
This is fluid dynamics....nasty stuff...here's a quote from a fluid dynamics lab in Holland:
Vortex Dynamics and Boundary Layer Turbulence
Real-life three-dimensional (3D) turbulence is still unexplained. A well-known quote is the one made by a distinguished scientist who said:
"When I face the good Lord on Judgementday I am going to ask him to explain two matters namely the fundamental meaning of quantum mechanics and secondly the nature of turbulence"
(Hive Bee)
10-02-04 06:18
No 534153
play with a bowl of water with some added dirt and sawdust;
spin the water. the heavier than water particles accumulate on the bottom center; the lighter than water crud gathers on the top edges. in super-saturated solutions that are spun while beeing cooled (usually) the excess solvates will accumulate on the center bottom. try it with sugar water
(esoteric)
10-03-04 23:33
No 534359
It's not that complex inasmuch as I know what to
expect from having experienced it, but as regards
a coherent explanation, it continues to elude me.
If
I was forced to engage some rust mired neurons in
calculating the centripetal force on a rope of radius length r
at the end of which was a mass m revolving at n radians/sec,
I'm sure I could do it, though likely I'd have
to cheat and look it up (but the vector method
with a tangent/right angle hypotenuse solution
is trying to crawl it's way out of the muck even as I type....)
Recollections of time/space distortions around heavy objects,
like the earth's orbit around the sun pop up:
only to be discarded as non-applicable, though the desire
to make some fanciful yarn up is difficult to resist.
Prior discourse with Organicum in re “Maxwell‘s Devil”
could be appropriate:
[urlhttp://www.process-controls.com/Pelm
Or, to demonstrate maybe some confusion on the related question
of air-cyclone dynamic separations:
http://www.dantecdynamics.com/applicatio
Or, for the esoteric (yikes!)
"The Dynamics of Quantum Vortices"
http://www.minescience.com/dynamics.htm
All in all, I no longer feel
as stupid as I am:
I mean?
You gottacheck outhttp://www.physics4u.com/
PS: metalgirl wuz rightest....
dwarfer
(Hive Bee)
10-04-04 07:31
No 534387
a typhoon does rearrange the normal level surface of the fluid. but does the boat ride up the slope, or get flushed down?
dwarfer is right; it is complex. the surface tension of the solvent also comes into play.
i take it back. it IS complex as hell.
in fact, i'm going into the bathroom right now to see if its even possible to flush a ping-pong ball down the crapper.
(i'll try it with some soap in solution, too. i'll report back on the couch, for those interested in the results)
(Stranger)
10-04-04 12:21
No 534410
funny, cause when you said you were going to the bathroom, i was already there, reading this thread.(isnt wirless cool!) im testing other things to flush down the toilet, though... i coulnt find a ping-pong ball, but so far last nights dinner, a ciggarette butt, my fingernail clipping and spit all go down fine. and your right! they all go to the center first!! But seriously, this phenom has been used for a while. i dont fully understand turbulance, either. the cole-parmer catalog has several systems for sale (sale? $2000.00 aint a sale!)... one capable of filtering things down to 6-8 microns...pretty impressive. i use the manual (heheh) version for making ice hash. after everything is blended and strained for plant material, i swirl the container clockwise/counter (doesnt matter which, just bee consistent) and all the broken trichroms collect in the center, the poor man's centerfugial seive.
(Of Counsel)
10-04-04 14:02
No 534422
I have noted from previous experience that when one puts sand and sawdust in a glass of water, sand accumulates at the bottom, and sawdust, for the most part, floats on the top. This is true regardless of whether the water in the glass is stirred or not.
I have also noted that coffee filters will catch almost all the sawdust if you filter most of the water through it, and almost none of the sand, which will remain in the glass if you decant the swirling water with any degree of care.
I have noticed that getting all the sand out of a glass takes more water than it should, and regardless of how many times you rinse, you only get it all out when you swirl and dump at the same damn time. Or when you hold the glass upside down and spray water into it.
What does this have to do with our present colloquy on cleaning meth by cyclonic action? Probably nothing.
Except for one point... without filtering at some point, you still wind up with sawdust, sand and water in the glass. You can stir, and maybe leave the sand in the bottom, and filter the rest; perhaps you can stir and while the centripital effect concentrates the dirt and trash in the center of the vortex, seize the moment and pour everything into a funnel with a filter. The trick is doing this when the solvent is still warm enough that the meth is still dissolved and whatever you are seeing in the cylone is not.
As for cleaning meth this way, I really think that if you cleaned the pseudo better at first, you would get out the polymers that are soluble in MEK and acetone, and which make meth soluble in MEK and acetone if they are present. Surfactants, perhaps I should call them. Without them, the meth won't dissolve in the MEK, even at temperature. Well, a little will. But not that much, unless you haven't dried the MEK. But in any event, you can't get those little solid things spinning in the vortex out unless you use a filter, or magic.
Your choice. I'll use a filter.
mostly harmless
(esoteric)
10-05-04 14:35
No 534585
Without them,
the meth won't dissolve in the MEK,
even at temperature
Marvin said that he used a microwave
for heating;
that the MA.HCl intercepted the
microwaves and were the first points of boiling,
and that they definitely went into solution
with only the localized boiling eventuating.
The boiling profile was not one typified by
occult water, at least in his experience.
It could be that the microwave heating was key to the
result:
your further comments would be appreciated, with this
additional information.
dwarfer
(Of Counsel)
10-05-04 20:21
No 534624
I'll try this with clean meth. Not that I have any clean meth left at the moment, but I have a new chant that works very well cleaning pseudo. I'll try that new chant on a few more pills pretty soon... and we'll see what falls out in MEK.
My regards to Wareami, thanks for the notes of degakking those pills.
I of course did not follow directions, as you knew I wouldn't...
I'll talk you into trying this chant yet, you wait and see....
mostly harmless
(Hive Addict)
10-06-04 05:12
No 534667
I still have a distorted view of exactly why the cycloning is employed dwarfie.
I'm still under the impression it's a visual only tool used to ID the gaaks from the goodz.
I guess If I got off my ass and tried it...I'd learn something
And Geez...since when are directions the ultimate precursor to success?
Tequila always works when all else fails!
Teaching old dogs new tricks is no easy task...especially if it involves grammar or speaking!
Ibee's used nothin but the chant he learned from Jacked three years ago...
Hasn't failed him yet!
Old dogs are the cat's meow!
But for you Ibee might try it!
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(esoteric)
10-06-04 11:05
No 534706
that the poly electrolytes/polyampholytes "self assemble"
when they are detached from the molecules they originally
were designed to screw up.
Self-polymerization arising from the ionic inclusions
in their makeup. At least in my experience, they manifest
in tiny wires, grow into longer twisted and curled form (still maybe 1/32nd of an inch is the largest, approx...)
and ocassionally form bizarre nucleated hydra shapes.
I will post a tyro's treatise on PA's later.
dwarfer
(Of Counsel)
10-06-04 14:53
No 534736
If you see the PA's in the MEK cyclone, what do you do to remove them?
The fact this detrius appears indicates the meth was not clean; the fact that it has gakks in it and dissolves readily in MEK suggests, in my experience, that the meth has in it one of the Eudragit polymers that seem to make meth and pseudo readily soluble in acetone and MEK when they are present. I could test the solubility of clean meth in MEK, but why would I want to dissolve clean meth in MEK? Unless, I guess, I was going to do a dual solvent recrystallization in alky and MEK. Okay. I have a rationale for putting clean meth in clean MEK.
mostly harmless
(esoteric)
10-06-04 20:05
No 534706
that the poly electrolytes/polyampholytes "self assemble"
when they are detached from the molecules they originally
were designed to screw up.
Self-polymerization arising from the ionic inclusions
in their makeup. At least in my experience, they manifest
in tiny wires, grow into longer twisted and curled form (still maybe 1/32nd of an inch is the largest, approx...)
and ocassionally form bizarre nucleated hydra shapes.
I will post a tyro's treatise on PA's later.
dwarfer
(Of Counsel)
10-06-04 23:53
No 534736
If you see the PA's in the MEK cyclone, what do you do to remove them?
The fact this detrius appears indicates the meth was not clean; the fact that it has gakks in it and dissolves readily in MEK suggests, in my experience, that the meth has in it one of the Eudragit polymers that seem to make meth and pseudo readily soluble in acetone and MEK when they are present. I could test the solubility of clean meth in MEK, but why would I want to dissolve clean meth in MEK? Unless, I guess, I was going to do a dual solvent recrystallization in alky and MEK. Okay. I have a rationale for putting clean meth in clean MEK.
mostly harmless
(esoteric)
10-19-04 04:53
No 536509
As you observe the spinning cyclone, and it cools,
detritus is observed to precipitate.
As it further cools,
something that looks
like it might be a feathery crystal
of fumeable substance appears.
At this point you filter it.
What remains in the filter is not good.
since the act of vacuum filtering evaps some volatile
solvents, cooling it, what then appears is to your wondering eyes...
something which if filtered again, should be saved:
ulike the first filter.
which shouldn't.
dwarfer
(Of Counsel)
10-19-04 16:34
No 536609
Vacuum filtration when the gakks appear and before the meth begins to preciptate would remove the solids and leave the unprecipitated meth in solution. This is most likely a function of the temperature of the MEK, is it not? So filtration at x degrees C should allow the meth to flow through since it remains dissolved in the MEK, and the gakks that have precipitated to be filtered out, correct? Sirring may have the effect of precipitating the gakks... just as scratching the side of beaker or flask with a glass rod will at times cause crystals to fall out. It may be the motion that encourages or facilitates the precipitation of the gakks... what confuses me is the five second microwave blast before filtration... as it might increase the temperature of the MEK enough to redissolve some of the gakks.
I supsect the precipitation of the meth is a temperature dependent function more than anything else, and filtration just before the solution reaches that temperature may be the key to selective filtering out of the gakks.
mostly harmless