10-02-04 00:59
No 534076
These inactives were in 2 out of the 13 boxes on swit_c's last rxn.:
Ammonium Hydroxide, carnauba wax, croscarmellose sodium, dibutyl sebacate, thylcellulose, FD&C red #40 Al. Lake, FD&C yellow #6 Al. Lake, fumed silica, hypremellose, lactose, microcrystalline cellulose, oleic acid, polyethylene glycol, povidone, pregelatinized starch, silicon dioxide, stearic acid, sucrose, talc, and titanium oxide.
What method would somebee recommend for this particular combination? KOH/ISO IPA boil was used. They were in packs of 24 x 30's. Super generic.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Addict)
10-02-04 01:32
No 534079
Always avoid mixing different strengths and formulations in the same extraction!
It's just asking to be gaaked!
Even the same extraction method on the different pills separately will be successful...but don't stand a chance in most cases mixing all those different inactives in the same extraction.
It sounds as if SWIt_c had success with festers KOH method but it concerns Ibee how the OII gaak skated through in the last run as SWIt_c states that the KOH was used!
If using that method....follow it to the tee.
Slight adjustments can be made but only after any problem areas are pinpointed.
More bees screw themselves by making changes in suggested methods applications without knowing the effect it will have.
Since learning that a mixed bag was used that came back with OIIgaak contamination, It's impossible to blame the method and say move onto another! I'd be more inclined to say you gaaked yerself than to blame the method as failing.
Do the KOH on just those pills(same kind!!!) and see what happens.
If gaak is encountered again....describe the exact procedure under the appropriate thread....in this case..festers thread.
These are DryMatrixFormulation pills according to the inactive list.
Never let h2o alone be the first solvent to come in contact with the pillmeat or it will gel!
If washing off red...beecareful not to wet the pillmass!
Goodluck
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Hive Addict)
10-02-04 01:43
No 534080
Ibee said along time ago that there would come a time when a prewash with TETRA would become a prerequisite step in any extraction to remove/disable most polymers.
It cannot hurt a thing...and only takes 15 min. at most til the pillmass dries.
Then do what you like with them in any method you choose!
It just makes good sense to remove what's easily removable first IMHO!
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Newbee)
10-02-04 01:44
No 534082
swit_c think you may have nailed swit_c thinks you may have nailed the problem. Pills were put in a collander with water dripped over them while they were swirled. Would this have been enough to set gaaks in, even after a KOH boil? Extraction from tolly after the boil didn't work like it did last time so tolly was evapped. Prior procedure worked beautifully with white sixties. Tolly was aloud to sit to drain entrained water and then gassed. With the red swit_c did get in a hurry and tried gassing too soon to no avail. Could these 2 factors have given the gaak passage? One more ? could the red hots be KOH boiled without removing the red?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Stranger)
10-02-04 02:45
No 534086
Does this hold true with name brands in addition to pill strengths? I looked in the ingredients of the store's generic brand and checked them to the Name brand's ingrediants and they appear the same. Should I avoid mixing the 2 anyways?
Life is a lesson and you'll learn it when your through
(Hive Addict)
10-02-04 03:14
No 534087
ampdup: Yes...avoid mixing namebrand and generic.
Also avoid mixing same strenghts from different manufacturers.
The biggest problem exists in the formulation.
These daze...the delivery system determines the formulation and somehow they've been able to include certain inactives without disclosing the exact ingredients used to comprise the formulation.
A year ago or so I posted about this delivery system threat becoming an effective area to employ a non-disclosure. It surely is the most likely area considering the gaak is in the pills with no identifying component in the inactive list.
This means that somewhere there was a re-write of the Labeling Laws requiring the industry to adhere to the "Consumer Right To Know" policy.
The inactive list clearly doesn't list eudragit or the other specialty polymers, but they are present.
The only way they can get away with this is with a supplement request that identifies and registers their presense via deliverysystem to the FDA.
That's my take on it based on all I've read.
tina_craig: No...it would not be wise to proceed with the red on. This is because of the newest coatings added to insure the pills pass the gastric digestive tract to allow dissolution and deliver in the colon region.
That is what eudragit is employed for.
Again...just because the pills aren't time-release, does not mean the do not have a modified release delivery system.
Remove the Red and avoid rushing this unpleasant task.
Practice makes perfect!
It's tedious but benefitial in the long run.
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Stranger)
10-02-04 05:43
No 534102
Is very important for all bee's to understand that you cannot trust the the pills inactive ingrediant list !
This moose once came across a box that had ony three inactives: carnuba wax, mirccrystaline celluose ? and lactose.....
Moose thought WOW ... fucking great !
a simple alky pull and a tone wash !
We were very dissapoined, to at post reaction workup time, when we found 'Orange Gak II' in massive amounts.....
Dont trust the list !
Treat all flavors of pills as if they all are the worst case inactive scenario !
(Hive Bee)
10-02-04 08:53
No 534119
Treat all flavors of pills as if they all are the worst case inactive scenario !
This can't bee reiterated enough, apparently. Since swim has been swimming (the last three gakks), never have they listed that elusive gakk that fukks the bee in the end on the box in this bee's experience. It would just bee too easy right?
Don't worry
it's just stigmata
pass me a napkin ... and don't you dare tell my mother
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-02-04 09:58
No 534127
Water dripping over them? Turn that fosit on full blast and shake the colander in a side to side motion. Watch the amount of red that leaves the colander in just seconds, pull and spray acetone like hell over them shaking the whole time and return it under the flow of water again, shaking still, when they start to lighten up (only a few more seconds) and shake freely pull them and spray like hell again with the acetone until they freely move around not clinging to each other..
Get you a garden variety spray bottle and fill it up and spray like hell.
Raise the colander up and drop it down stopping it sharply to throw the rest of the tone/red shit from the screen then lay them out on paper towels. They will be dry and be firm if it was done fast enough and in just a few min.
If your going to be extracting with 91% alcohol (9% H2O) there wont be a problem if at first you don't get the hang of right away it and they are a little soft.
The water loosens the red but the red shit, when wet, glues to each pill creating a mass of pills imposable to shake. Without the rushing water forcing this gue out the strainer fast it will make for a mushy pill even after the tone has evaped.. The acetone carries the shit away along with the water but just dripping or little streams of water makes for longer exposure to the gue/red/water shit. Turning that water on full blast does not what you would think but just the opposite, it also keeps the screen from clogging up with red die even slowing the draining process more..
Do not try getting all the red off. A pink/orange tint with the little numbers clearly visible is what you are after..
A white pill cant even be picked up with fingers without disintegrating meaning to long of an exposure to the water.
Some brands will act different than others. Some will glue up and its imposable to get rid of the clear sticky so don't try, you will notice in this type of pill every third of forth pill will be just as red as when you started while the others are white as a ghost, don't concern yourself with the stubborn red ones just carry on.. These types will have a glossy red coating instead of the dull finish normally encountered..
Doing the KOH thing you can judge the work being done by using the red left on the pill as an indicator to the reaction taking place.. A built in gack meter so to speak..
This red and orange die is hell on filtration so removing as much as possible before it encounters a filter is highly recommended..
Dwarfer has a really cool method of getting "the red out" for those of you timid to fast flowing streams of cold water. It involves submerging the pills in acetone and adding water dropwize until you see the red start to loosen, then shake like hell. You can search this method for more detail, I cant give it the justice it deserves due to time, age and lack of brain cells but it is a really cool de-redding process. Its worth a search...
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-02-04 10:17
No 534128
Wareami is 100% correct about that. Rule #1 never mix pills, Rule #2 never get out of the boat..
I think rule #2 is for mango's so disregard that one..
Tighten Up! (UH)
(Hive Bee)
10-02-04 15:35
No 534155
dwarfer's method insures no excess water. the acetone and water are miscible, so the water can bee added to just the point at which the red coating is dissolved. then, the entire solution needs to bee dumped.
an alternate method might involve dropping pills into a tall beaker of water with a np layer on the bottom. as the pills drift down thru the water, they lose their covering and end up safely isolated in the heavier than water np at the bottom of the column. this way, only dirty water needs to bee discarded. the height of the water column has to bee experimently determined. best to leave a tiny trace of red on the pills to know that you didn't go too far.
(this is just an idea; swim hasn't actually tried it, but it sounds elegant)
(Newbee)
10-02-04 16:05
No 534158
Don't most NP's besides DCM sit on top of water?
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Addict)
10-02-04 17:55
No 534170
Rule #2 never get out of the boat..
I think rule #2 is for mango's so disregard that one..
That's hilarious Jacked
Rule#2 is great advice! Nobee wants to beecome a 
It's been so long since Ibee messed with redhots and many will benefit from your sage wisdom and advice on the matter.
Before replying above with the suggestion to de-red first, I had to sort through the PM's to find your last one cause I wasn't sure if that was part of SWIJed's advice using the KOH.
Before when doing a/b extractions...it was always noted that the red fell off in that process.
So that left me in the position to research first before putting my foot in my mouth regarding the KOH!
T_C: Not all non-polars will float on top. Tetra is a bottom dweller as are many others!
I believe all non-polars will separate out of h20 eventually, even if they give the appearance of being miscible!
If the shoethrows fits...Ware Itout
(Ancient Alchemist Delux)
10-02-04 20:55
No 534190
The ones with red and orange listed together have a nasty filtration issue. Sense that is a requirement before the KOH is even introduced into the extraction I recommend it. You don't loose anything but nasty red and some orange die and it only takes 10 min to do.. No die will go through an A/B thats for sure also when the that was in practice the pills only listed red #40 AL, when the orange was added about 3 or 4 years ago and made the shit real nasty for some reason when filtered. Keep in mind at least one filtration is done before any A/B takes place.
Tighten Up! (UH)