10-23-04 01:30
No 537216
I found a new (to me method) for extraction of RP from MB. You still have to cut them into strips... I have been experimenting with adding water to acetone to remove RP. Denfinatly increases the extraction speed but leaves you with soggy strips and lots of paper contaminates. Today I placed my strips into acetone (200mbs in about 0.5L). Added no water and about 60ml of muratic acid (maybe more it was a splash). After 1 min of firm mixing almost all RP came of MBs. In another couple minutes I was left with very fine MBRP with very little paper shards.
No more 2hr mixing sessions for me!
,Canuk
(Stranger)
10-23-04 06:49
No 537259
In previous posts (apologies to the author who I don't recall) the suggestion was made to initially use HOT H2O for 5-10 seconds. The reasoning given was to loosen the glue. After pouring the H2O off then acetone (or the combination of choice)could be used. Swidb found this actually decreased the paper particle contamination since there was less agitation involved. Just a thought since it helped swidb.
life is a contact sport...
(Hive Bee)
10-23-04 07:07
No 537264
SWIN's personal experience with adding water at any stage (even after multiple solvent washes) resulted in ~1/2 the mbrp clumping together and floating to the top. The water turned a thick white color (almost like milk...)
it was a bad scene. The addition of HCl did nothing except give off some nasty fumes, even after sitting for as long as 2 days. perhaps the striker pads on these matches are different in composition...the matches that SWIM gets are a bitch to strip - he sits there for hours scrubbing each individual strip with a tooth brush in a pan of acetone
...Anybee have a better idea?? soaking in acetone and alcohol with agitation only takes about 1/2 of it off...and it takes about 8hours of soaking and shaking/mixing!
HAH!
(Stranger)
10-23-04 08:10
No 537268
Swidb has compiled a mix and match method from a number of ideas from the numerous posts. 1) he strips the covers. 2) cut the strips. 3)VERY hot H2O for 5-10 sec. then drain 4)Add acetone, shake until strips are clean. (usually less than 30 sec.) (really stubborn brands get a marble or 2 in the jar) 5)remove paper strips from jar. 6) let settle then pour off acetone (which will have a red tint if the books were the red variety.) 7)IPA (preferably the 91%)stirred then allowed to soak for 2-3 minutes (used to remove the glue). 8) pour off IPA and add H2O while still wet from IPA. The glue with trash (looking like RP) will float. 9) Pour off H2O and follow with clean acetone. 10) Pour off acetone and allow to dry. 11) With a wood or bamboo instrument free RP from glass into fine mesh tea strainer over a container to catch RP and work with finger or wood instrument untill only paper particles are left in strainer.Discard crap left in strainer. 12) Place RP from container in flask with E,I2.......OOOPS went to far.Swidb meant to say the RP is ready for use as you desire.
This works for Swidb who has (durring hard times) used the above in amounts as low as .4(Above RP),1 E, 1.3 I. to produce gear.
Hope that helps
To err is human, to really foul things up take a computer
(Of Counsel)
10-23-04 15:51
No 537292
You folks are reinventing the wheel. Is there a reason for this?
Check the stim forum faq; Squidippy spells it out.
mostly harmless
(Newbee)
10-23-04 21:32
No 537321
I wouldn't dare reinvent the wheel. Just posting my expierence. I didn't encounter any extra fumes, surly none worse then the acetone it self. But with out saying things like this (espeicaling working with acids or solvents that desolve in water) should be done under a fume hood or outside.
(Newbee)
10-25-04 07:22
No 537622
to work better than marbles,just use whatever blades you want Ibee likes "coping saw" blades (coarse ofcourse)
*all colours and times approximate
(Stranger)
10-25-04 09:29
No 537646
Remember in the world today the universal cure is becoming more scarce, even with MBRP.
MBRP whether its matchbooks or matchbox has a variety of different substances/glues.
Some MBRP will come clean just by using a cocktail of solvents, others requre scrapeing no matter what.
It amazes me how many newbees make new threads just to tell everyone they have done something, whether its pseudo extraction or MBRP cleaning.
What they state can easily be found in TFSE and letting us know youse have done these feats serves no purpose at all, cept to clog up these forums.
But this is the learning curve of the newbee, as it always be.
(Stranger)
10-27-04 06:58
No 538040
After you have generally rid your mbrp of glue with acetone/HCl/IPA washes, you would probably want to get rid of the paper by washing with hot sulfuric acid which will dissolve all cardboard/paper/anything organic. That leaves mainly one thing, glass. Would a 3% solution of HF be sufficient to get rid of the remaining glass, and would HF attack red phosphorus? I have a very cheap OTC source of 3% HF
.
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon...
(Chief Bee)
10-27-04 07:40
No 538049
Pouring HF on RP is stupid, as is hot sulfuric: Post 468895 (Osmium: "Strong H2SO4 might oxidise some of your rP,...", Stimulants)
The Hive - Clandestine Chemists Without Borders
(Hive Bee)
10-27-04 08:58
No 538064
i've heard that at RT conc. sulfuric is fine, though.
after removal with IPA, then conc. HCl treatment - some brands give a red gum, or a hard-and-difficult-to-powder cake. i suspect gakking or very acid-resistant paper.
a soaking for 2 days with crap-free 93% sulfuric under a watch-glass gives CO2 (yes, not PH3), brown sulfuric, and much cleaner mbrp with these brands. after washing and drying - soft powder. you can soak the product in more sulfuric and nothing happens.
definitely worth doing.
why not just try the otc HF, sacrifice a strikers worth, and let us know (or not) what happens?
http://www.dailyrotten.com
(Hive Bee)
10-29-04 21:34
No 538595
Swit_c has one of those crescent-half-moon shaped metal strainers that you hold to the edge of a pan and it has circular holes in it which allows rp and tone to pass through but not paper and such.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Hive Bee)
10-30-04 00:33
No 538624
What is really the purpose of washing RP in H2SO4? All the chemicals you don't want are soluble in either RT HCl or warm HCl (excluding the glues, which acetone gets rid of). Yeah, using a fine metal screen works great for filtering RP. That way you get no to very little paper in your RP.
Crank is part of this complete breakfast.
(Hive Bee)
10-30-04 03:32
No 538656
this is what i was saying - water, dry acetone, IPA, and HCl don't remove everything, not with those brands. and H2SO4 does. get it? as in the weight goes down.
let's get this straight - i was talking about strips soaked in quite a bit of dried IPA and then shaken for 2 mins - not rubbing rp off and contaminating it with paper. then washed well. i am not talking about anything separable by decantation or filtration, the usual solvents, or that dissolves in 35% HCl. or anything visible dry or wet - it makes its presence known in other ways.
http://www.newsfilter.org
(Hive Bee)
10-30-04 04:29
No 538666
Antimony Trisulfide
CAS Registry Number: 1345-04-6
Additional Names: Antimonous sulfide; antimony sulfide; needle antimony; antimony glance
Molecular Formula: S3Sb2
Molecular Weight: 339.72.
Percent Composition: S 28.32%, Sb 71.68%
Line Formula: Sb2S3
Literature References: Occurs in nature as the mineral stibnite. Prepn: Donges, Fricke, Z. Anorg. Chem. 253, 2 (1945); Gagliardi, Pilz, Z. Anal. Chem. 136, 344 (1952); Gmelin's, Antimony (8th ed.) 18B, pp 503-524 (1949). Toxicity study: W. R. Bradley, W. G. Fredrick, Ind. Med. 10, Ind. Hyg. Sect. 2, 15 (1941).
Properties: Gray, lustrous, crystalline masses or grayish-black powder. Also exists in a red modification. mp 550°. Practically insol in water. Sol in concd HCl with evolution of H2S; sol in solutions of the fixed alkali hydroxides. LD i.p. in rats: 100.0 mg Sb/100 g (Bradley, Fredrick).
Melting point: mp 550°
Toxicity data: LD i.p. in rats: 100.0 mg Sb/100 g (Bradley, Fredrick)
Use: In pyrotechnics, Bengal fires; manuf ruby glass, matches, explosives; as a pigment in paints.
--------------------------
Iron Oxide
Description : Odorless, Red-brown To Black Crystalline Powder
Melting Point : 1,565
Vapor Pressure : 1 Mmhg @ 20
Specific Gravity : 4.2-5.24
Water Solubility : < 0.1%
Volatility : 0%
pH : 4.0 8.0
Solvent Solubility : Soluble In Warm Hydrochloric Acid, Slightly Soluble in Sulfuric Acid.
Applications: In coating, printing ink, paint, also as coloring agent for building material, rubber, paper-making. In producing ferrites Also used in recording tapes and pyrotechnics
--------------------------
Manganese Dioxide
CAS Registry Number: 1313-13-9
Additional Names: Manganese binoxide; manganese peroxide; manganese superoxide; black manganese oxide
Molecular Formula: MnO2
Molecular Weight: 86.94.
Percent Composition: Mn 63.19%, O 36.81%
Literature References: Occurs in nature as the mineral pyrolusite, or made artificially (pptd). The native product is heavy, steel-gray when in lumps, black when powdered; the pptd product is a brownish-black, fine powder. Both usually contain some Mn3O4 and some water. When ignited evolves oxygen, leaving Mn3O4. Lab prepn: Moore et al., J. Am. Chem. Soc. 72, 856 (1950); Covington et al., Trans. Faraday Soc. 58, 1975 (1962). Toxicity study: D. J. Holbrook, Jr. et al., Environ. Health Perspect. 10, 95 (1975). Review of use as reagent: J. S. Pizey, Synthetic Reagents vol. 2 (John Wiley, New York, 1974) pp 143-174.
Properties: Tetragonal crystals (rutile structure). Insol in water, nitric or cold sulfuric acid. Slowly dissolves in cold HCl with evolution of Cl2; in presence of hydrogen peroxide or oxalic acid it dissolves in dil H2SO4 or HNO3. Strong oxidizer; should not be heated or rubbed with organic matter or other oxidizable substances, e.g., sulfur, sulfides, phosphides, hypophosphites, etc. LD50 orally in rats: >40 mmole/kg (Holbrook).
Toxicity data: LD50 orally in rats: >40 mmole/kg (Holbrook)
Use: The mineral is the source of manganese and all its compds; largely used in manuf manganese steel; oxidizer; in alkaline batteries (dry cells); for making amethyst glass, decolorizing glass; painting on porcelain, faience and majolica. The ppt is used in electrotechnics, pigments, browning gun barrels, drier for paints and varnishes, printing and dyeing textiles.
If the MBRP is washed with cold HCl that is then warmed up... left to sit for a while and decanted what would the H2SO4 be removing?
Crank is part of this complete breakfast.
(Hive Bee)
10-30-04 08:48
No 538706
evolution of non-flammable, odorless gas that is not oxygen, and brown H2SO4 makes me think something organic. could some organic be on the surface of the P yet retain match usefulness? this sounds far-fetched but who knows. a glue that is attracted to P when released from the paper by a solvent?
http://buzzflash.com
(Stranger)
11-03-04 13:39
No 539422
Honestly, what is all of this nonsense? Just soak your strips for an hour or so in pre-dried acetone, shake vigorously, and filter, that's it, all done.
If you want to boil in water, etc., after removal from the striker backing, to further clean, by all means, do so. Any water in the acetone during removal will just give you a soggy mess, keep it dry and simple.
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 15:31
No 539435
Disreguard
That is all swit_c ever does, tone, filter, dry and crumble through metal screen and RP always performs perfectly.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(Of Counsel)
11-03-04 16:32
No 539445
If the only cleaning you do of the strikers is with acetone, you are not cleaning the strikers sufficiently to get down to red phosphorous. You are kidding yourself, and you will hit a batch that bites you in the ass.
IF you look at the reaction that takes place when you add HCl to the pile of dried raw striker powder you will immediately realize that there is a base in the strikers you do not wish to add to your reaction. HCl will neutralize this, it will also help remove the last of the glues and other problemmatic additives.
Skip the HCl soak or boil at your own risk. I do not recommend the use of H2SO4 as I have found its use helpful only in circumstances where paper fibers have contaminated the red phosphorous. I do not recommend the use of concentrated H2SO4 at all. A fine sieve will remove most of the paper fibers, and more careful removal of the red phosphorous from the striker cover will avoid the fibers in the first place.
There are some wise and time-worn posts on the preparation of mbrp on this board that should not be disregarded lightly. The fact that you may have had a successful reaction with mbrp cleaned with acetone alone is not a basis for advising others to use mbrp cleaned only with acetone. They may not be using the same strikers you use, or they may have different expectations of how clean their red phosphorous should be. And your advice could very well cause bees using other types of strikers to have failures.
If so, have you contributed to the common wisdom here?
Before you advise disregarding some of the sage advice to be found here, you might consider that your experience may not be as extensive or diverse as that of the cumulative experiences of the Hive as a whole, and that there may be a reason the accepted standard methodology contains the steps it contains.
Dry acetone alone may work on the matchbook strikers you have dealt with; unless you know that it works on all the strikers out there, are you doing other bees a favor by suggesting your results may be applied across the board to all strikers? Probably not.
Do keep that in mind when posting. I'm not saying you haven't succeeded with dry acetone alone. I am saying that the wisdom of a number of bees who have found through a thousand repeated cleanings and reactions NOT to rely on acetone alone to clean the crap from the phosphorous in the srikers, should not be lightly disregarded.
And keep in mind that the goal of the discourse in this forum is not the production of "decent" methamphetamine. It is the production of the purest meth that we can make, the best, the cleanest. Our goal is not average quality, or even good dope. Our goal is to show the way to make the real stuff.
mostly harmless
(Hive Bee)
11-03-04 17:04
No 539451
Sorry about that bees, swit_c has experimented with several types of strikers and has found a particular brand that allows this simple of a cleaning. Statement retracted.
Tina Craig worked for me!!
(arrogant bee of the day)
11-03-04 23:13
No 539512
I love you guys
It's not really me, it's Android in disguise!
(Newbee)
11-04-04 01:24
No 539534
"Honestly, what is all of this nonsense? Just soak your strips for an hour or so in pre-dried acetone, shake vigorously, and filter, that's it, all done."
NMR thats definitely one of the most ignorant statements ive ever heard here.
What makes you think everyone has the same striker pads as you do? especially when we are talking about a global scale here.
Swim has strikers that need to be scraped no matter how long you soak for and how hard you shake, and just acetone does not clean it and leaves it still very clumpy.
And im sure thats the same for most bees these days.
Just remember where you are, and remember this for next time.