04-05-03 03:36
No 423982
I had to put in a post because I'm coming to the end of my first semester of chemistry and have to say to anyone out there attempting to do any of this stuff without any actual chemistry experience is asking for trouble. Now that I know what everyone is talking about I know how dangerous this stuff can really be without any experience. I highly reccomend anyone thinking about putting any of the stuff in here to use that they take some sort of chemistry courses and be sure to use proper equipment. otherwise your ass could be grass.
Don't let your ego obscure reality
(Distinctive Doe)
04-05-03 04:49
No 423998
First semester of general chem?
hehehe
(Stranger)
04-05-03 08:45
No 424028
is the ability to realize that your your own teacher.
arrogance often comes in the disguise of an unenlighted preacher posin as a teacher.
instructor teach thyself.
!!!daed pu ekaw uoy neht dna...MAERDaTUBziFYL
(Hive Bee)
04-06-03 02:10
No 424194
I agree with the "bee your own teacher" thing, but I think that what dickdastardly is saying is that a bee shouldn't try any of this stuff (not that any of us would, of course, beecause it's illegal
) without first studying not just the synth instructions, but also the chemistry involved. My guess is that some people out there are reckless enough to just find a recipe and "wing it", without knowing what's really going on in the chemical reaction, (or even knowing what an electron is 
). It would seem to me that that's how spontanious firework shows happen.
(Distinctive Doe)
04-06-03 02:18
No 424199
real chemists "wing it" all the time. They don't know for sure whats happening, they know what they hope will happen. Sometimes those are very different.
The real dangers
fire
pressure
poison
incompatibility
If you know the basic properties of the chems your using then these can bee minimized. A good fume hood helps beyond measure.
(Newbee)
04-06-03 02:21
No 424202
Swim is at the end of swims first year of chem. really excited about organic :-]
Fuck the instructions.
(Hive Bee)
04-06-03 02:52
No 424213
"A good fume hood helps beyond measure."
In chemical EXPERIMENTS a fume hood would definately bee needed, but is one also necessary if someone is just doing the long, wet reflux of honey?
(Distinctive Doe)
04-06-03 03:01
No 424215
Someone told me the bathroom fan works for that.
(Hive Bee)
04-09-03 10:10
No 425020
Thanks foxy2! ...but it would seem like that would also result in distributing the smell around your neighborhood for the curious neighbors to smell.
(Hive Bee)
04-09-03 10:28
No 425024
Yeah well, a fumehood is also going to exhaust the fumes somewhere, not just let a tiny black hole suck them all into oblivion. I guess a water scrubber or a hose and a wash bottle is the answer if the fumes are to be gotten rid of.
But then again, this has been discussed ad nauseum.
(Hive Addict)
04-11-03 00:11
No 425495
If gen chem impressed you this much, just wait until you hit O-chem. Very fond memories, very hard, but interesting.....
"The gods are too fond of a joke." (Aristotle)
(Hive Bee)
04-11-03 19:42
No 425759
Very fond memories, very hard, but interesting.....
Organic chemistry isn't that hard. You just have to UNDERSTAND what is going on in the reaction mechanisms (the electron-movements)
Personally, I am under the impression that "theoretically" knowing organic chemistry and standing in a laboratory are two different things.
For the latter, one needs experience and the only way to obtain that is: learning by doing. For carrying out most detailled described lab procedures here, it is more usefull to read a lab manual than a organic chemistry textbook. Of course one has to know what is going on in the particular reaction you're interested in, but this doesn't imply that you have to store March, Advanced Organic Chemistry in your head
.What every newbee needs is:
Vogel's textbook of practical organic chemistry, 5 th edition.
ISBN 0-582-46236-3
or the equally good
../rhodium /vogel3.
And another important thing: check out the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for the compounds you're working with!
(Hive Bee)
04-12-03 00:34
No 425815
Having recently been learning organic chemistry myself, I feel it is infinitely more satisfying performing procedures with knowledge of the reaction rather than just following them recipe style. A good knowledge of chemistry in general also greatly helps in the lab for practical purposes. You won't have to memorize write-ups step by step, because you understand why each step is performed. You won't be as likely to make stupid mistakes, such as doing something that would obviously (to someone with more knowledge) destroy your target compound. You'll understand why it is important to do three extractions instead of just one, etc. You will also be more likely to understand the importance of proper purification. And of course safety (there's a reason why more meth labs blow up than labs run by knowledgeable persons). Swim has a long way to go on all of these aspects but it IS worth it for anyone here that hasn't done so to pick up a general chem book and read it. The idea of someone trying to synthesize chemicals for consumption with as little knowledge of chemistry as possible is unsettling.
(Hive Bee)
04-12-03 03:14
No 425875
OK, you're right. I only wanted to point out that you can restrict your "chemical knowledge" to the procedure you're planning to undertake. One doesn't have to be a chemical engineer to cook up some amphetamines.
But of course, a good academic education can be helpfull
(Hive Bee)
04-12-03 12:12
No 426033
re ../rhodium /vogel3.
Mamma-mia! That's a HUGE book! After glancing at it, it looks like it would bee extremely helpful to the newbee who has no lab/chemistry experience. Hats off to Rhodium!
But the one thing that kind of "freaks me out" is to know that Rhodium has probably not only read ALL 1,200 pages of that book, but probably understands it all too!
(Hive Bee)
04-12-03 12:48
No 426040
A newbee doesn't have to read the entire book. I 've got the 5 th ed. at hand now. If you read the experimental techniques and the solvents and reagents section, that will do. Nobody reads the entire section with the laboratory procedures, that is intended as a reference. If you search for a particular reaction, just look it up
.
(Hive Bee)
04-12-03 13:03
No 426044
I specifically looked for a go-go-synth, but couldn't find one. Does it have one on go-go?
(Hive Bee)
04-12-03 14:02
No 426056
No, but that's why you are here aren't you? If the Rhodium archive doesn't satisfy your go-go synth needs, then you have to UTFSE!
(Hive Bee)
04-12-03 14:30
No 426060
I am VERY satisfied and excited with what I've found on both this site, and also on Rhodium's site. I was just wondering if this book had additional go-synths.
Believe me- I've already found enough great info on these 2 sites to keep me busy for a long, long time. Now if I can just get my newbee brain to really absorbe and learn this stuff.
(Hive Bee)
04-13-03 03:30
No 426192
The only go-go synth (LOL) that can be found in Vogel, 3 th edition, is that of methylamine.
What did you expect, that such a highly regarded lab manual would be stuffed with drug procedures? Read in it to learn about general laboratory skills (they will become quite handy, whatever you're trying to cook).
(Chief Bee)
04-15-03 21:58
No 427033
The only go-go synth (LOL) that can be found in Vogel, 3 th edition, is that of methylamine.
Oh no, it also details the preparation of P2P, as well as miscellaneous reductive aminations. That book is good for many things if you know how to use it.
(Hive Bee)
04-16-03 06:35
No 427159
Ahhh organic chemistry was the shit- the most enjoyable series SWIM has ever taken. Most peole will look at a person like they're crazy if they say, "I loved O chem.." But it is true, and it is that sole passion for organic chemistry that drove SWIM through college.
However, there is a lot more to chemistry than the organic portion of it. Dealing primarily with only carbon, nitrogen and oxygen, organic concentrates on a very small fraction of the periodic table. Even though the majority of compounds existing in nature (especially living things) fall into the catergory of organic compounds, there is a lot more to it than that.
The kind of passion SWIM had for organic made taking the series very easy. On one hand, SWIM's mind just works well when dealing with these kinds of topics, but on the other hand, being so interested in it, there was no way SWIM could have done poorly. SWIM remembers beginning the physics series while taking the organic one, and hating it. Primarily because it was HARD, and SWIM wasn't used to classes being hard. Also because it wasn't interesting though. SWIM just dealt with it and trudged through the physics series. SWIM remembers the last day of physics class, being quite happy it was all over...
But then came Physical Chemistry. SWIM had heard stories. SWIM had been told it was the one of the hardest classes an undergraduate student could take.. But SWIM kind of always kept organic in mind as a motivator and figured P.Chem would just be a lot of work, and that it would all still make sense without too much trouble. Not the case! P.chem was the hardest class SWIM has ever taken. It was the first chemistry-specific class SWIM didn't get an A in. It is, essentially, taking physics and applying it to chemistry on a fundamental level. It is learning "real" chemistry, and it changes a lot of what students think they know up to that point. All that stuff they teach you in general chemistry? Ideal gas laws? How to calculate the pH? It is all dummied down because they figure students at the general chemistry level aren't yet capable of understanding the methods involved in figuring out how to model reality. And they are probably right, although in SWIM's experience it might have been nice to have been told while in gen.chem, "this is really just for ideal situations. Real does not equal ideal." Perhaps other people ARE told such things, ahh well.. In the end (of P.chem, heh) you might be able to just take the formulas and plug the numbers in, but its getting to those formulas that is so hard, and actually understanding it all that can be really challenging. It probably took SWIM the first half of the year long sequence before things finally clicked, and what actually clicked in the end was some fundamental idea of problem solving. That was what was so hard in physics, and what was so hard in p.chem as well, was relating this wacky math to the concepts you're trying to interpret. If this "click" had taken place prior to taking physics, it probably would have gone much better.
Certainly if you get caught up in the organic mindset you can really get used to the idea of chemistry without math. Organic is even a step down from gen.chem in regards to the math involved. After P.chem, SWIM's math skills were quite advanced compared to when SWIM started it all. A triple integral to derive a quantum wave function in 3D polar coordinates (quantum mechanics is, of course, an underlying principal to chemistry and chemical reactivity- they teach you allll that wacky shit in p.chem, not the standard undergrad physics series) is a real bitch, but ehh, its not that bad.
Surprisingly enough however, is that in the end of it all one can see how it all interrelates. P.chem lead SWIM to an even better understanding of organic in some areas. Inorganic chem is another one some people forget about- not an overly easy class in itself. SWIM was surprised how similar organic and inorganic chem can look when you really get to the basics of it all. Think about it though, you can take organic chemistry and learn all this stuff about molecular geometry and reaction mechanisms.. But think about, for example, a hydrogenation catalyzed by palladium metal (something many bees are quite familiar with
). You're taught in organic chemistry that you can do that reaction. Most o.chem classes probably convieniently skip over the reaction mechanism for that one, and might say something as much as "ahhh well the properties of palladium allow it to facilitate the transfer of protons on it's surface...." but does a student fresh out of organic chemistry really have any idea why that reaction works the way it does? All the different areas of chemistry pretty much intertwine in the end.Uhh.. sorry about that all, really. Was in a rambling mood. Most of you probably didn't really want to hear all that.. I guess if you read this far though, it means you actually did...
-SpicyBrown
(PVC-Analog Taste-Tester)
04-16-03 08:33
No 427183
Of course I'm not against chem classes, but you can learn a lot just from reading organic chem books and the net. I recently took a pre-college course, but once we got to the point of learning about orbitals, I got the fuck out of there!
Love my country, fear my government.
(Hive Bee)
04-16-03 12:27
No 427230
Organic is even a step down from gen.chem in regards to the math involved.
When I was young, a class was taught called "Theoretical organic chemistry", where they applied some the stuff they taught in quantum chemistry (such as Hartree-Fock) to organic chemistry.
I 'd not say (serious) organic chemistry is a mathematically a step down to general chemistry. Hell, they even don't have the mathematical tools to solve multi electron problems ... hence the approximative methods.
Or wait until you get a course of 2D-NMR. Then, you certainly appreciate some mathematical skills
.But of course I know what you mean: a basic class of org chem isn't as quantitative as those concentration calculations in analytical chemistry.
I recently took a pre-college course, but once we got to the point of learning about orbitals, I got the fuck out of there!
You're on the good path Bwiti: keep it up & continue absorbing knowledge
.
(Hive Bee)
04-17-03 06:00
No 427482
When I was young, a class was taught called "Theoretical organic chemistry", where they applied some the stuff they taught in quantum chemistry (such as Hartree-Fock) to organic chemistry.
I 'd not say (serious) organic chemistry is a mathematically a step down to general chemistry. Hell, they even don't have the mathematical tools to solve multi electron problems ... hence the approximative methods.
You're right about that one- Physical organic chemistry for example is definitely not a step down from gen chem math-wise .
You know, I read back over my rant up there and it sounds like maybe it was a little on the "bitching" side- Not the intent. Even though p.chem was a real bitch, I'm not bitching about having to take it. Also, even though it seems like it would be cool if there were a way to teach the separate subjects more blended together, I'm not sure if it would work out very well to really do it that way- Chemistry overall is quite a behemoth of knowledge and I think it really does kind of need to be built up the way it generally is in the undergraduate curriculum.
I recently took a pre-college course, but once we got to the point of learning about orbitals, I got the fuck out of there!
Point well made- In fact it was, to some large extent, SWIM's personal drive to learn about the topics covered on the Hive for example that eventually led to becoming a chem major. With enough desire you really can teach yourself a lot about this kind of stuff. And when it comes to actually carrying out syntheses, its all about the experience. Having the underlying knowledge of whats going on can really help to decide what to do when weird shit happens (quite frequently..) but as far as technique, one can only learn so much without actually doing it yourself. SWIM probably learned more about technique from his own experimentations prior to entering college (well, gen chem was taken care of prior to this) then he learned in all the sophomore organic chem labs.
-SpicyBrown