10-13-01 03:30
No 223856
After reading the post on attaching acetone to benzene using Mn(AcO)3 one of my frinds got the idea to use MnO2 from dry cell batterys insted of KMnO4 as a precurser for Mn(AcO)3. The reason why MnO2 would be much more preferible is that it can be extracted in large amounts from dry cell batterys. For examble 8 of the large batteries would cost around 6 US dollar and would proberbly containe aroung 400g MnO2. If Mn(AcO)3 was the goal 400g MnO2 would compare to 1000g of Mn(AcO)3 of theoradical yeld. comparring to 400g of KMnO4 that would only give around 650g Mn(AcO)3. The only thing that needs to be done is to converte the MnO2 to some kind of water souluble salt and from there the procedure would be the same as normal where the the water soluble salt is converted to a carbonat and so on.
Unfortunly MnO2 is almost impossible to react wih other chemicals. for example MnO2 was attemptet to react with the followng chemicals but with out any look: H2SO4, H2SO4 and 68% HNO3,30% HCl, 50% NaOH. At least ion exchancing betwen MnO2 annd NaNO3 was attempted but againe without any reaction occured. Im sure that some kind of elecktro chemestry could be an option but there has got to be an easier way to do it.
(Hive Bee)
10-13-01 03:45
No 223862
Industrially, KMnO4 is produced by a two-part process. First, MnO2 is heated with KOH, fusing it to form KMnO3, or potassium manganate. This is then subjected to acidic oxidation with hydrochloric acid to produce the permanganate. To produce the manganate, the DRY powders of KOH and MnO2 are merely homogeneously mixed, and heated. There will be a color change upon reaction. I have a reference for this, and I will get back to you with a quote and source w/in 12hrs. (going to work)
In this process for producing the triacetate, we first react the permanganate with hydrochloric acid further to yield MnCl2. This is then precipitated as the carbonate via addition of Na2CO3, which is then reacted with GAA to yield the acetate. Well, just oxidize your managanate straight to the MnCl2 state.
So, in conclusion:
KOH + MnO2 __> KMnO3
KMnO3 + HCl __> KMnO4 __> MnCl2
MnCl2 + Na2CO3 __> MnCO3
MnCO3 + CH3COOH __> Mn Triacetate,
Nifty, ain't it?
PrimoPyro
I collect synthetic drug precursers. Aren't you jealous? Member: C_F and pyrotek FanClubs
(Official Hive Translator)
10-13-01 06:57
No 223905
Y'know it's funny but freshly precipitated MnO2 is very reactive.
But not the battery stuff.
I found that about the only thing it reacts with is conc. HCl - that's how they make chlorine in old lab tech books. To make the proc. even cheaper you can put it into ~70% H2SO4 and gradually add salt.
It is still a slow process, though, and a stinky one.
Antoncho
(Ubiquitous Precursor Medal Winner)
10-13-01 16:16
No 224020
Another complication, though, is that the MnO2 in dry cell batteries is mixed with carbon powder. This prevents accurate asessment of how much MnO2 you've got; no way I can think of, short of pyrolysis, to separate it out. It should bee just a nuisance; it will neither react with KOH nor HCl, two of the reagents mentioned. It's hard to just ignore its presence though. Either of these two black powders is a bit untidy. Put them together, it amounts to a big mess.
turning science fact into <<science fiction>>
(Official Hive Translator)
10-14-01 08:47
No 224326
Either of these two black powders is a bit untidy.
to put it mildly...
(Hive Bee)
10-14-01 20:41
No 224458
This seems like an unncessary hassle, but if I was going to do it, I'd wash the dry cell powder in water,
filter, dry, and heat strongly in a crucible with a small amt. of KNO3. Careful though... you don't want to make gunpowder, just burn off the impurities. When it looks like all the carbon has been oxidized, add more KNO3 and some K2CO3. You should get a mess of glassy material, most of which will dissolve in water. (potassium manganate) You need a hot gas flame for this, btw.
"Daddy, what's it going to be like in the year 2000?"
(Stranger)
10-15-01 00:12
No 224509
Okey that sounds relative simpel. As to the KMnO4 into MnCl step would`nt it then be easier to use NH4Cl insted of hexamine.
By the way did any of you see the Tyson - Brian fight last night? Brian gave up in the 7th round as expeted. One of my friends was about to cry beause he did`nt see it. How about you?
(Synaptic Cleft Mountaineer)
10-15-01 00:27
No 224513
You cannot use NH4Cl instead of hexamine, but you can use formaldehyde instead of hexamine.