03-26-02 19:38
No 288381
I am atempting my first DMT extraction. I have decided on Phalaris. I know most argue for Mimosa Hostilis but I do not have ready access. In preparation for the extraction I have sampled several differant methods (Yoda's, Mescalito Ted's, QT's #1&2, DMT World...). I want the purest and most potent product.
My question concerns PH. I am aware that PH is the most important aspect of a good extraction. I have seen reports that say proper PH levels differ slightly for differant materials. I have noticed that Mimosa is basified to 11 or 12, whereas Phalaris is usually 9 or 10. But I am getting ahead of myself.
In the "QT" extractions, both for Phalaris and Mimosa, concentrations for solutions are given, but when it comes to creating the salts they simply say "cover the material." In the "DMT World" and "Mescalito Ted versions," you are instructed to simply add acid until the PH of the mixture lowers to 5. My first question concerns wether 5 is the ideal PH for salt creation in Phalaris? If your PH was lower would more salts be created/extracted? If the PH is lower than 5 are more undesirable elements introduced to the Mixture?
I also plan to perform several defating extractions. I understand that Naptha is best for this, where DCM is better for the final extraction, is this true?
As to basifying. My question concerns the best PH for Phalaris. Is a PH of 9 or 10 best for Phalaris, where a more basic PH of 10-11 is better for Mimosa? I Know that basifying to much is destructive to the process, but in order to make the purest and most potent product I would like to Know.
Thanx to anyone taking the time to read my message and help me out. Any other tips or knowledge would be appreciated, I am in surch of the best shit.
(Hive Bee)
03-27-02 00:48
No 288457
SWISM doesn't pay too much attention to the pH either... as long as it's acidic when washing out the fats & oils and basic when extracting the alkaloids.
However, he does have one suggestion: Use chloroform when extracting the alkaloids (and whatever cheap NP solvent is available when washing out the fats & oils). SWISM read somewhere about how the big seed suppliers determine alkaloid content of different strains of Phalaris, apparently chloroform works best for getting all the alkaloids (accurate measurements are important for them, as they're trying to lower the alkaloid content in commercial Phalaris!)
If you can't get chloroform, don't sweat it, every NP SWISM has tried will do the job, you just might not get quite as much, but you will get something. Maybe extract 4 times instead of 3 to compensate. But don't obsess, the law of diminishing returns will kick in shortly.
To Bee, or not to Bee... ;-)
(Stranger)
03-27-02 09:49
No 288575
I have to wonder about the selectivity of Tetrachloroethylene (break cleaner) as the final extraction solvent... (read post 268438 about 1,1,2-Trichloroethane note the uses) Now I know that these two solvents are different but my question is this, do they both hold the same use as alkaloid solvents? I know that Naptha is probably on of the shitiest solvents to use for final extraction but I see it repeated everywhere... I have a feeling that there is something about chlorinated solvents that just tends to suck the alkaloids right out of the aqueous layer.
Swim hasn't tried it yet but plans on this being one of his solvents (variables) when he does get start playing again...
I'd like to see the following OTC solvents tested for their selectivity in absorbing DMT...
Dichloromethane - paint stripper
Tetrachloroethylene - break cleaner
Tetrachloroethane- phased out
Tetraflouroethane - air duster (wonder if this is closer to a better substitute for TetraChloroehane)
Any comments are appreciated.
Al K. Loyd
(Hive Bee)
03-27-02 10:29
No 288588
I know that I have read somewhere on the threads about butane extraction(of weed) that somebody had successfully used butane to extract DMT. The discussions were all about weed, but I would assume the process to be the same for both. If u look up that person's username and pm, I am sure that they will be happy to explain how they did it, and what the yields and purity were like.
(Stranger)
03-27-02 11:45
No 288621
I am fairly positive that butane as an initial extract on plant matter will not yield what you are after. The compound you are after needs to be liberated from the plant with an acidic solution and then the free base must be liberated before it will be soluble in the butane. Butane as an initial extract on the plant will however defat and remove some unwanted substances. Anyone feel free to correct me if they've found differently. You really have to go through an A/B in order to isolate enough of the compound to make an active dose due to the rate at which you have to intake it. It metabolises so quickly that you have to have a concentration that is fairly high in order to get enough. Without the A/B you are left with all sorts of waxes and clorophyl and organic matter...
I'd love to see this thread stay alive.... This is something I truly enjoy reading about.
(Old P2P Cook)
03-27-02 11:59
No 288634
The discussions were all about weed, but I would assume the process to be the same for both.
The active substances in marijuana are soluble in butane but DMT salts are not.
(Stranger)
03-27-02 12:38
No 288651
So Solvents exist in an ascending order of quality? In that Naptha... is the worst (best for washes), Dcm and others somewhat better (could be used for final extraction), xylene, Ether, Tetrachloroethane and Chloroform best (Best for final extraction).
If the above is true, then if someone imagined using Madmax's plan for double A\B, then he would wash first salts w/ Naptha, extract w/ DCM, salt, wash w/naptha, then extract w/ ether to ensure best conservation, movement and yield?
(Stranger)
03-28-02 08:50
No 289041
Sounds like you got it to me... From my understanding, Naptha is over selective when it comes to DMT (it doesn't absorb it easily enough) but tends to suck up fats and oils and waxes readily. This makes it a decent solvent to use when washing these things out, ie. defatting.
DCM is less selective in the final extraction, which is ok because you should have washed it up pretty good by that point. When it starts pulling, it pulls everything out of that aqueous layer that it can...
It's not so much that the solvents have different levels of quality but rather different properties which make different solvents advantageous in different situations... If that made any sense. Take Meth for example... Naptha won't pull the freebase out of water for shit unless you heat it up. Tolulene on the other hand doesn't need to be heated at all because of it's great affinity for the freebase. It sucks it up like mad without having to poke and prod it to do so...
make sense?
RE: If the above is true, then if someone imagined using Madmax's plan for double A\B, then he would wash first salts w/ Naptha, extract w/ DCM, salt, wash w/naptha, then extract w/ ether to ensure best conservation, movement and yield?
something like this maybe
wash first salts w/ naptha
free base
extract free base w/dcm or trichloroetheylene(?)
salt
wash again w/naptha
free base
extract w/dcm or trichloroethylene(?)
I'd really like to hear what trichloroethylene does in an extract... I have a feeling it will be comparable to dcm or chloroform. can't wait for summer.... bundleweed galore!!!!
(Newbee)
03-28-02 18:09
No 289267
Actually, naptha is extremely selective for DMT and much less so for fats. It is very apparent that the purity of the DMT extracted using DCM is much less then that of DMT extracted using clean naptha. DMT extracted using DCM usually yeilds an oil- partly due to the fact that it evaps so quick that it leaves the tray covered in frost which melts to water and thus your DMT is an oil. When it finally hardens it is usually tanish red. When extracted with naptha (so long as you defat 3x and backwash your naptha before evaporating) you will always be left with white to off white crystals that are very pretty. Swid has never ever been left with an oil when using naptha. DCM would be much better for the 3 defats but IMHO not nearly as good for the last extract.
Also some will argue with this but extreme control of the PH is not necessary. Swids extracts are done with a Ph of 1 for the acid extract and then basified to ph14-16(or as soon as the solution turns smooth and dark again). Even with the ph this high for the last extract he is always left with whitish crystals after backwashing.
yeilds are always between 4.5g at the lowest up to 8-9g at the highest. I maintain that the second A/B is not necessary at all as long as you backwash with neutral or slightly basic water. DCM is definately usefull for many other extracts but totally unsuitable for DMT extraction if you want crystals without having to recrystalize
(Stranger)
03-28-02 21:55
No 289358
Ok dely, how about a simple step by step list of exactly what you do to get the elusive white crystals... sounds like the voice of experience, and red is not that attractive...
Thx!
Infinite Radiant Light - THKRA
(Hive Bee)
03-28-02 23:44
No 289402
yeilds are always between 4.5g at the lowest up to 8-9g at the highest.
Using how much starting material? SWISM is very curious to know...
Also, a note regarding naphtha, SWISM has tried distilling hardware store naphtha, and even the distillate leaves a very thin film of something when you evaporate 100mL as a test. He's tempted to assume that the hardware store stuff is as pure as it's going to get straight out of the can, and skip the distillation.
To Bee, or not to Bee... ;-)
(Hive Bee)
03-29-02 09:17
No 289526
The solution (when bassified), will turn from a brown to a white, and is at the proper ph when it turns brown again. This yields the purest product.
Acidification isn't too necessary, some recommend a MeOH/Etoh extraction of the already salted dmt first.
http://dmt.lycaeum.org
No barbed wire can cage a bee.
(Hive Bee)
03-29-02 23:36
No 289766
Just use naptha in the a/b extraction process outlined above.