XrLeap (Hive Bee) 09-17-04 08:46 No 531792 |
Easy NaBH4 amination (Rated as: good read) |
|||||||
SWIM received a PM on doing the NaBH4 amination easy way. The method has been mentioned all over bee hive, but there is no detailed description on it. SWIM is now posting this in NewBee forum for sharing. Please bear with it if this has been described in detail before. This is the LabTop's methanol method with easy generation of methylamine gas. Materials: MDP2P 1 weight unit Methylamine.HCl 0.7 weight unit NaOH 0.42 weight unit Methanol 3 weight unit NaBH4 0.1 weight unit 3A molecular sieves 0.5 unit 1) Dissolved all methylamine.hcl in warm methanol. 2) Dissolved all NaOH in the previous solution, while applying cooling with ice/salt bath. 3) Filtered the NaCl formed after methylamine gas generation in situ completed. One can see that all NaOH has been dissolved. 4) Throw in some amount of 3A mol sieves to hopefully dry the methanol. Stir for 1 hour. 24 hours would be good. 5) Added the PMK cooled. 6) Added NaBH4 a la LabTop. 7) Removed cooling, stirred for 21 hours. Workup as usual. The standard workup for SWIM: 1) Throw in 3x or 4x volume of 10% NaOH into the solution. PH as high as possible. 2) Let settle, meaning there are 2 layers formed. 3) Seperate the lower layer in this case. 4) Add in DCM(low boiling point, good extraction) to extract more freebase, 3 times would be enough. Now the aqeous solution should look very clear. 5) Make the soluion acidic, pH 3 is good, by adding dilute acid solution. 6) Discard the DCM layer now. This contains maybe unreacted PMK. 7) Make the aqeous solution alkaline. 8) Extract with DCM 3 times. 9) Distill off DCM, residual Methanol or other lower boiling stuff. Under atm pressure, stirring is applied for distilling very volatile solvent like DCM. 10) Apply vacuum to distill the lovely smell free base. 11) To squeeze over the last drops, turn off the vaccum, bring the flask's temperature higher by 15C to 20C. Then apply the vaccum again. Red or grey tar forms in the flask. This is nothing new, but SWIM just wishes to share what he received from fellow helpful bees. oops i did it again |
||||||||
XrLeap (Hive Bee) 09-18-04 14:47 No 532039 |
Oops, SWIM forgot to indicate yield. | |||||||
Oops, SWIM forgot to indicate yield. 85% m/m can be achieved repeatedly. MDP2P used was obtained thru benzo wacker, 1 time distilled. 1 way to improve further is to add the 3A mol sieves after PMK addition, to remove H2O from imine formation. oops i did it again |
||||||||
XrLeap (Hive Bee) 09-18-04 23:47 No 532039 |
Oops, SWIM forgot to indicate yield. | |||||||
Oops, SWIM forgot to indicate yield. 85% m/m can be achieved repeatedly. MDP2P used was obtained thru benzo wacker, 1 time distilled. 1 way to improve further is to add the 3A mol sieves after PMK addition, to remove H2O from imine formation. oops i did it again |
||||||||
XrLeap (Hive Bee) 10-23-04 11:17 No 537281 |
Help needed | |||||||
SWIM is using this method to aminate his ketone: Post 531792 (XrLeap: "Easy NaBH4 amination", Newbee Forum) In the cooling part, SWIM tried to use dry ice to cool the methanol solution and it became below -20C. This was during addition of NaBH4, the temaperature stayed below 0c until all NaBH4 was added. Lowest was way below what a normal thermometer could indicate. However, there was problem. When SWIM returned the next day, there was still a lot of NaBH4 undissolved(teampurature @ 21C), the methanol solution(methanol, methylamine, ketone, NaBH4) looked very concentrated. SWIM went on to work up(A/B extraction plus distill) and obtained only about 50% yeild. Is adding of NaBH4 needed to be between 0 to 150C? SWIM started from below -20C. This was done on multi mol scale. Could imine formation be done under -20C? Could amine formation be done under -20C? Or could it be that methylamine.HCL and NaOH could not react to produce methylamine(free base) + NaCL + H20 under -20C? If it was possible to produce methylamine(free base) + NaCL + H20, will the H20 become solid(ice) under that temperature? Allow SWIM to say thank you for taking your precious time in reading this. Thank you. XrLeap oops i did it again |
||||||||
LaBTop (Daddy) 10-23-04 16:24 No 537294 |
You are confused with 3 procedures. | |||||||
Making 10% MeAm-gaseous/MeOH, Imine-forming, and Amination !
|
||||||||
LaBTop (Daddy) 10-23-04 19:44 No 537313 |
I see that Aurelius | |||||||
has changed that strange 4.16 % to 41.6 %, that seemed also a bit strange to me, when I read and reread that text. ( Post 440349 (Aurelius: "JACS 74(9), 2346-2348 (1952)", Newbee Forum) , the sup-text in blue halfway.) In the same text, something interesting caught my attention while reading it, but I never saw anyone commenting on it:
|
||||||||
LaBTop (Daddy) 10-24-04 00:24 No 537334 |
I inserted a quite long Edit | |||||||
in post nr 537294. Please read that first, before commenting. LT/ WISDOMwillWIN |
||||||||
indole_amine (Hive Bee) 10-24-04 00:59 No 537343 |
evacuating would probably be counterproductive | |||||||
Difficult - all imine reduction methods rely on shifting the equilibrium carbonyl + amine -> imine + water to the right by either removal of water and/or imine (its reduction to the amine is irreversible). If vacuum is applied, the commonly used primary amines (MeNH2, NH3) are continuously removed as gases, resulting in shifting the equation equilibrium towards the educts - I doubt it would improve anything... Sodium and lithium don't react the same way: one slowly gets oxidized when coming in contact with air, while the other often explodes rather violently. I think this enhanced reactivity of lithium can be put on one level with that of sodium- vs. lithiumborohydride. (I would like to see someone throwing a big lump of lithium into a bucket of water! ) To make water air-free, it also can be put under vacuum before dissolving the borohydride in it, isn't it? (at least as long as you immediately flush with inert gas right after air removal/before commencing with borohydride addition, it should be impossible for any air to enter the borohydride solution... ) (BTW slightly basifying the borohydride solution with NaOH does a very good job too in stabilizing the whole shebang... at least most of the manufacturers of aequous borohydride solutions believe in it! ) indole_amine |
||||||||
LaBTop (Daddy) 10-25-04 05:01 No 537593 |
Yes, | |||||||
you are right, I should have frased it as follows: Can anybody try out Bariums wet method with 40% NaBH4 --in water--, where that water portion is then made airfree by applying high vacuum first. Since the quote says that the resulting -airfree- 40% NaBH4/water solution stays fairly reactive during several hours, this should be tried asap. And I read that "several hours" as under normal reaction circumstances, so without applying high vacuum during that reaction. The 40% NaBH4 in there will remain quite active during several hours. He already uses a commercially obtained (basified with a pinch NaOH) 40% NaBH4 solution, but I like to see if the yield can be improved further by making that commercial solution also airfree. I'm a yield-freak. LT/ PS: made a few edits extra in the long post, to clarify things which were typed wrong. WISDOMwillWIN |
||||||||
r2e3 (Hive Bee) 10-25-04 20:29 No 537739 |
ok | |||||||
lithium and water is a slow reaction i have made up my mind now |
||||||||
indole_amine 10-25-04 20:35 |
Li is very reactive
(Rated as: misinforming) |
|||||||
hypo (Balanced Ego) 10-25-04 21:04 No 537750 |
huh? | |||||||
i really don't want to annoy you, but usually Na is considered to be more reactive than Li. because electronegativity decreases when you go down in the periodic table. Li < Na < K. ever heard of Na-organyls? HΨ=EΨ |
||||||||
indole_amine 10-25-04 22:44 |
Li > Na > K
(Rated as: misinforming) |
|||||||
hypo (Balanced Ego) 10-25-04 22:51 No 537769 |
||||||||
http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft/CCA (note that this page is somewhat skewed, since the density probably has an effect in this case too) > Lithium is on top of the alkali metals, so if electronegativity decreases when > going down the table, it should be Li > Na > K. yes Li > Na > K for electronegativity, but Li < Na < K for reactivity. (they aren't active for attracting electrons, but for getting rid of their electron) > Lithium has a lower bp than sodium, hence the reaction with water may be more violent. ???? HΨ=EΨ |
||||||||
indole_amine (Hive Bee) 10-25-04 22:56 No 537771 |
ah | |||||||
Then call it reactivity, not electronegativity. And although lithiums electronegativity is greater than that of sodium, it still reacts more vigorously with water: because it melts earlier, splatters earlier, gives smaller spots which heat up even quicker, and a fire is therefore set off much earlier than with sodium. As you (hypo) are an experienced experimenter, I would advise you to take it to the test: Take two big buckets (preferably metal ones), fill with water. Take 500g of sodium which has been stored under petroleum previously, and 500g lithium which has been stored the same way. Make sure u use at least that much, else you won't notice any measurable effects. Also make sure you don't use any gloves here, it could cause imprecise results. Wash both lumps with plenty of alcohol, then quickly throw them both into a separate bucket (as you will realize later, it is VERY important to conduct the experiments at the same time and as close together as possible), take off your protection glasses and wait. All others: DON'T TRY THIS! You *may* lack hypo's knowledge and therefore you most likely will cause a big explosion when attempting this. Don't do it. indole_amine |
||||||||
Barium (Heavyweight Chempion(eer)) 10-26-04 01:59 No 537806 |
Huh? | |||||||
Indole; What are you talking about? The reactivity increases as you move down the table in that column. Compare potassium with sodium in water, then compare cesium with potassium. With cesium it is another dimension of reactivity. This is not from any book but from experience. For comparison, why do you think that IPA or tert-butanol is the recomended solvent for the destruction of potassium? Sodium can be safely destroyed with EtOH if due precautions are taken. Sodium ethoxide is quickest made, according to Vogel's by adding ethanol to the metal... "Place 1.5 mol sodium cut in small pieces in a 2 litre flask equipped with an efficient double surface condenser and a separatory funnel. Measure out 1 litre of super dry ethanol and place about 500 ml in the funnel. Place a large bowl beneath the flask and have a large wet towel in readiness to control the vigour of the reaction. Run in about 200 ml of the ethanol on to the sodium....." Try that with potassium and you are in a world of trouble. Lithium wouldn't cause much in fuzz in comparison. Severe Aztecoholic and President of Sooty's fanclub - Sooty for President!! |
||||||||
hypo (Balanced Ego) 10-26-04 12:45 No 537893 |
rotfl!! :) | |||||||
|
||||||||
indole_amine (Hive Bee) 10-26-04 16:24 No 537920 |
normally yes | |||||||
At the risk of receiving a well-deserved "insignificant" rating: You know, usually learning is fun - if it isn't based on the comments of someone who begins every reply with the intelligent and kind word "Huh?"... (funny coincidence that this also includes Barium's last post; I realized it just after typing this.. ) And when I picked up the topic the first time, I originally just wanted to depict that different alkali metals have quite a different activity. And that alkali metal borohydrides therefore might posess different properties. So far about getting off-topic. Just to remember. indole_amine |
||||||||